Is the "culture of life" a culture of hypocrisy?

On the third point, I suppose he believes in the death penalty. In the right circumstances, I certainly do. I assume there were no circumstances necessitating a, hmmm, would repreive be a better word here? If I knew the facts, I might well agree with him. Now, I've said "suppose", "assume", and if. I haven't been into any of these cases.

Points 1 & 2 - hey, I don't know either.

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Transcript: Bush Speaks to Anti-Abortion Demonstrators

Monday, January 24, 2005; 4:17 PM

President Bush talked by telephone to abortion opponents in Washington on Monday, just before the 32nd annual march marking Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court decision. Here is a transcript.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33039-2005Jan24.html

EXCERPT (page 1):

Quote:

BUSH: Nellie, thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

Thanks a lot for inviting me to speak. I know it's chilly there in Washington, but weather hasn't stopped thousands of participants from marching for life for the past 32 years, and it did not this year either.

And so I'm honored to be a part of this tremendous witness that it taking place in our nation's capital. And it's good to hear your voice again.

You know, we come from many, different backgrounds, but what unites us is our understanding that the essence of civilization is this: The strong have a duty to protect the weak.

(APPLAUSE)

I appreciate so very much your work toward building a culture of life...

(APPLAUSE)

... a culture that will protect the most innocent among us, and the voiceless.

BUSH: We are working to promote a culture of life, to promote compassion for women and their unborn babies.

We know -- we know that in a culture that does not protect, the most dependent, the handicapped, the elderly, the unloved or simply inconvenient become increasingly vulnerable. . . .

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Debra_Law: I have always been amazed and, frankly, awestruck by those who attend the annual protests against Roe v. Wade, held in Washington D.C. every January. Since the Reagan administration, they have had the honor of being addressed by each Republican president, each of whom has expressed sympathy for and solidarity with their cause. Yet each one -- Reagan, Bush I, and now Bush II -- consistently, and without fail, has done absolutely nothing to overturn that decision. But still, despite this record of unmitigated disappointment, these simple, credulous people return, year after year, in the forlorn expectation that maybe this will be the year that the president actually backs up his rhetoric with something more than additional rhetoric. Truly, it brings one close to tears to see their pitiful, child-like hopes crushed every single January, and yet it renews one's faith in the persistence of hope that they return, year after year, to repeat this ritual of rejection, disappointment, and betrayal.

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You are correct, Joe from Chicago, but you realize, don't you, that any change in Roe vs. Wade must come from the Supreme Court. If President Bush can undo some of the damage done by Clinton with his appointment of Bader by naming two and possibly three new justices to the Supreme Court before 2008, there may indeed be a new challenge to Roe vs.Wade which will be looked upon favorably by the USSC.

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Re: Is the "culture of life" a culture of hypocrac

DrewDad wrote:

Several folks brought this up on the Schiavo thread; I thought it warranted a larger discussion.

Bush interrupted his vacation to sign a highly controversial law in an attempt to block the removal of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.
But, he did not interrupt his vacation after the recent tsunami.
And, he did not commute death sentences during his tenure as the Governor of Texas.

Can someone reconcile these for me?

(Note: edited "pardon death-row inmates" to "commute death sentences." Roger had a good point about my inexact language.)

1. In the case of Terri Schiavo, she had not already been killed. She was still in the process of being killed, but the progress of Congress in passing the bill was unpredictable. He wanted to be available the moment the bill passed to interrupt her starvation at the earliest possible second. In the case of the tsunami victims, the event had already occurred, and although timely intervention was still important, it would not interrupt a murder in progress in the same simple way. Generally, the faster you provide relief to anyone, the better, of course, but in the case of Terri Schiavo, the situation was very simple. I can see why he would feel like that. If I were asked to interrupt a murder in progress, I would probably act the same way to be available instantly.
2. As far as death row inmates go, there is certainly no contradiction in wanting murderers to be executed, but not wanting innocent people to be executed.

Why can't you figure this relatively simple stuff out yourself? It isn't rocket science.

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chiczaira wrote:

You are correct, Joe from Chicago, but you realize, don't you, that any change in Roe vs. Wade must come from the Supreme Court. If President Bush can undo some of the damage done by Clinton with his appointment of Bader by naming two and possibly three new justices to the Supreme Court before 2008, there may indeed be a new challenge to Roe vs.Wade which will be looked upon favorably by the USSC.

A constitutional amendment would overturn Roe v. Wade.

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Culture of life huh?

Schiavo is technically living, but if she's an example of what Bush believes requires preservation, then I want no part of it...especially if I were in her shoes.

Maybe I just don't get it....but how many Americans have died in order to ensure freedom for Iraqi citizens?
Wouldn't allowing stem cell research in a greater capacity provide a greater good--for American citizens and the entire global community?

How 'bout these folks?

Quote:

152 Executions while Bush was Governor

152 Claude Jones 12/07/2000
151 Daniel Hittle 12/06/2000
150 Garry Miller 12/05/2000
149 Tony Chambers 11/15/2000
148 Stacey Lawton 11/14/2000
147 Miguel Flores 11/09/2000
146 Jeffery Dillingham 11/01/2000
145 Ricky McGinn 09/27/2000
144 Jeffery Caldwell 08/30/2000
143 David Gibbs 08/23/2000
142 Richard Jones 08/22/2000
141 John Satterwhite 08/16/2000
140 Oliver Cruz 08/09/2000
139 Brian Roberson 08/09/2000
138 Juan Soria 07/26/2000
137 Orien Joiner 07/12/2000
136 Jessy San Miguel 06/29/2000
135 Gary Graham 06/22/2000
134 Paul Nuncio 06/15/2000
133 John Burks 06/14/2000
132 Thomas Mason 06/12/2000
131 Robert Carter 05/31/2000
130 James Clayton 05/25/2000
129 Richard Foster 05/24/2000
128 James Richardson 05/23/2000
127 Michael McBride 05/11/2000
126 William Kitchens 05/09/2000
125 Tommy Jackson 05/04/2000
124 Timothy Gribble 03/15/2000
123 Ponchai Wilkerson 03/14/2000
122 Odell Barnes, Jr. 03/01/2000
121 Betty Beets 02/24/2000
120 Cornelius Gross 02/23/2000
119 James Moreland 01/27/2000
118 Glen McGinnis 01/25/2000
117 Billy Hughes, Jr. 01/24/2000
116 Larry Robison 01/21/2000
115 David Hicks 01/20/2000
114 Spencer Goodman 01/18/2000
113 Earl Heiselbetz, Jr. 01/12/2000
112 Sammie Felder, Jr. 12/15/1999
111 Robert Atworth 12/14/1999
110 James Beathard 12/09/1999
109 David Long 12/08/1999
108 Jose Gutierrez 11/18/1999
107 John Lamb 11/17/1999
106 Desmond Jennings 11/16/1999
105 Domingo Cantu, Jr. 10/28/1999
104 Jerry McFadden 10/14/1999
103 Alvin Crane 10/12/1999
102 Richard Smith 09/21/1999
101 William Davis 09/14/1999
100 Willis Barnes 09/10/1999
99 Raymond Jones 09/01/1999
98 Joe Trevino, Jr. 08/18/1999
97 James Earheart 08/11/1999
96 Kenneth Dunn 08/10/1999
95 Charles Boyd 08/05/1999
94 Ricky Blackmon 08/04/1999
93 Tyrone Fuller 07/07/1999
92 Charles Tuttle 07/01/1999
91 Joseph Faulder 06/17/1999
90 William Little 06/01/1999
89 Clydell Coleman 05/05/1999
88 Jose De La Cruz 05/04/1999
87 Aaron Foust 04/28/1999
86 Excell White 03/30/1999
85 Charles Rector 03/26/1999
84 Norman Green 02/24/1999
83 Andrew Cantu 02/16/1999
82 Danny Barber 02/11/1999
81 George Cordova 02/10/1999
80 Martin Vega 01/26/1999
79 Troy Farries 01/13/1999
78 John Moody 01/05/1999
77 James Meanes 12/15/1998
76 Jeff Emery 12/08/1998
75 Daniel Corwin 12/07/1998
74 Kenneth McDuff 11/17/1998
73 Jonathan Nobles 10/07/1998
72 Javier Cruz 10/01/1998
71 David Castillo 08/23/1998
70 Delbert Teague, Jr. 09/09/1998
69 Genaro Camacho, Jr. 08/26/1998
68 Leopoldo Narvaiz 06/26/1998
67 Johnny Pyles 06/15/1998
66 Clifford Boggess 06/11/1998
65 Pedro Muniz 05/19/1998
64 Robert Carter 05/18/1998
63 Frank McFarland 04/29/1998
62 Lesley Gosch 04/24/1998
61 Joseph Cannon 04/22/1998
60 Jerry Hogue 03/11/1998
59 Steven Renfro 02/09/1998
58 Karla Tucker 02/03/1998
57 Michael Lockhart 12/09/1997
56 Charlie Livingston 11/21/1997
55 Michael Sharp 11/19/1997
54 Aaron Fuller 11/06/1997
53 Aua Lauti 11/04/1997
52 Kenneth Ransom 10/28/1997
51 Ricky Green 10/08/1997
50 Dwight Adanandus 10/01/1997
49 John Cockrum 09/30/1997
48 Benjamin Stone 09/25/1997
47 Jessel Turner 09/22/1997
46 James Davis 09/09/1997
45 Robert West, Jr. 07/29/1997
44 Irineo Montoya 06/18/1997
43 Eddie Johnson 06/17/1997
42 David Stoker 06/16/1997
41 Earl Behringer 06/11/1997
40 Davis Losada 06/04/1997
39 Dorsie Johnson, Jr. 06/04/1997
38 Kenneth Harris 06/03/1997
37 Patrick Rogers 06/02/1997
36 Robert Madden 05/28/1997
35 Larry White 05/22/1997
34 Bruce Callins 05/21/1997
33 Clarence Lackey 05/20/1997
32 Richard Drinkard 05/19/1997
31 Clifton Belyeu 05/16/1997
30 Anthony Westley 05/13/1997
29 Terry Washington 05/06/1997
28 Ernest Baldree 04/29/1997
27 Benjamin Boyle 04/21/1997
26 Kenneth Gentry 04/16/1997
25 Billy Woods 04/14/1997
24 David Spence 04/03/1997
23 David Herman 04/02/1997
22 John Barefield 03/12/1997
21 Richard Brimage, Jr. 02/10/1997
20 Joe Gonzales, Jr. 09/18/1996
19 Kenneth Granviel 02/27/1996
18 Leo Jenkins 02/09/1996
17 James Briddle 12/12/1995
16 Esequel Banda 12/11/1995
15 Hai Vuong 12/07/1995
14 Bernard Amos 12/06/1995
13 Harold Lane 10/04/1995
12 Carl Johnson 09/19/1995
11 Vernon Sattiewhite 08/15/1995
10 Karl Hammond 06/21/1995
9 John Fearance 06/20/1995
8 Ronald Allridge 06/08/1995
7 Fletcher Mann 06/01/1995
6 Noble Mays 04/06/1995
5 Samuel Hawkins 02/21/1995
4 Billy Gardner 02/16/1995
3 Jeffery Motley 02/07/1995
2 Willie Williams 01/31/1995
1 Clifton Russell, Jr. 01/31/1995

Source

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Re: Is the "culture of life" a culture of hypocrac

Brandon9000 wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
Several folks brought this up on the Schiavo thread; I thought it warranted a larger discussion.

Bush interrupted his vacation to sign a highly controversial law in an attempt to block the removal of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.
But, he did not interrupt his vacation after the recent tsunami.
And, he did not commute death sentences during his tenure as the Governor of Texas.

Can someone reconcile these for me?

(Note: edited "pardon death-row inmates" to "commute death sentences." Roger had a good point about my inexact language.)

1. In the case of Terri Schiavo, she had not already been killed. She was still in the process of being killed, but the progress of Congress in passing the bill was unpredictable. He wanted to be available the moment the bill passed to interrupt her starvation at the earliest possible second. In the case of the tsunami victims, the event had already occurred, and although timely intervention was still important, it would not interrupt a murder in progress in the same simple way. Generally, the faster you provide relief to anyone, the better, of course, but in the case of Terri Schiavo, the situation was very simple. I can see why he would feel like that. If I were asked to interrupt a murder in progress, I would probably act the same way to be available instantly.
2. As far as death row inmates go, there is certainly no contradiction in wanting murderers to be executed, but not wanting innocent people to be executed.

Why can't you figure this relatively simple stuff out yourself? It isn't rocket science.

1. Are you saying that faster aid would not have prevented a single death?

2. What about the possibility of innocent people on death row? Would it not be better to err on the side of caution?

What about, say, AIDS medication in Africa? Providing AIDS medication could save thousands, millions of lives.

What about lowering the speed limit? What about preventing drunk driving? Better safety built into cars? All of these would save innocent lives, but I don't hear a roar from the "culture of life" for these measures.

IMO the "culture of life" is less about protecting innocent lives, and more about attacking women's rights. I just don't see the the other actions that would back up the idea that protecting innocent life is the end-all be-all of the movement.

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joefromchicago: I've heard a number of articles talking about how the Republicans get to have things both ways so long as Roe v. Wade is in force.

1. It allows them to have a rallying point.
2. Overturning it would alienate a huge number of voters (think back-alley abortions).

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Re: Is the "culture of life" a culture of hypocrac

DrewDad wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Several folks brought this up on the Schiavo thread; I thought it warranted a larger discussion.

Bush interrupted his vacation to sign a highly controversial law in an attempt to block the removal of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.
But, he did not interrupt his vacation after the recent tsunami.
And, he did not commute death sentences during his tenure as the Governor of Texas.

Can someone reconcile these for me?

(Note: edited "pardon death-row inmates" to "commute death sentences." Roger had a good point about my inexact language.)

1. In the case of Terri Schiavo, she had not already been killed. She was still in the process of being killed, but the progress of Congress in passing the bill was unpredictable. He wanted to be available the moment the bill passed to interrupt her starvation at the earliest possible second. In the case of the tsunami victims, the event had already occurred, and although timely intervention was still important, it would not interrupt a murder in progress in the same simple way. Generally, the faster you provide relief to anyone, the better, of course, but in the case of Terri Schiavo, the situation was very simple. I can see why he would feel like that. If I were asked to interrupt a murder in progress, I would probably act the same way to be available instantly.
2. As far as death row inmates go, there is certainly no contradiction in wanting murderers to be executed, but not wanting innocent people to be executed.

Why can't you figure this relatively simple stuff out yourself? It isn't rocket science.

1. Are you saying that faster aid would not have prevented a single death?

2. What about the possibility of innocent people on death row? Would it not be better to err on the side of caution?

What about, say, AIDS medication in Africa? Providing AIDS medication could save thousands, millions of lives.

What about lowering the speed limit? What about preventing drunk driving? Better safety built into cars? All of these would save innocent lives, but I don't hear a roar from the "culture of life" for these measures.

IMO the "culture of life" is less about protecting innocent lives, and more about attacking women's rights. I just don't see the the other actions that would back up the idea that protecting innocent life is the end-all be-all of the movement.

In fact, there is probably a nearly infinite number of worthy causes which lives could be saved by participating in, but we are particularly concerned with causes in which our society deliberately chooses to kill the people based on the attitude that they are of little value, aside from people who perhaps should be killed like murderers whose murders involved aggravated circumstances. The fact that Bush opposes the killing of fetuses for convenience, but does not get personally involved in every conceivable one of the thousands of worthy causes in which lives might be saved does not seem like much of an inconsistency.

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candidone1 wrote:

Culture of life huh?...How 'bout these folks?

Quote:
152 Executions while Bush was Governor

152 Claude Jones 12/07/2000
151 Daniel Hittle 12/06/2000
150 Garry Miller 12/05/2000.......

The fact that you think some murderers should be executed does not obligate you to also think that innocent people should also be executed. You are trying so hard to make something of nothing.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

candidone1 wrote:
Culture of life huh?...How 'bout these folks?

Quote:
152 Executions while Bush was Governor

152 Claude Jones 12/07/2000
151 Daniel Hittle 12/06/2000
150 Garry Miller 12/05/2000.......

The fact that you think some murderers should be executed does not obligate you to also think that innocent people should also be executed. You are trying so hard to make something of nothing.

Brandon, I'll kindly refer you back to your outright and ad nauseum denial of the validity of the Schiavo outcome.
If you wish to discuss "something out of nothing" after that, I'd gladly entertain the dialogue, but until then, I respectfully ask that you hold yourself to the same standard you hold other a2k members.
That way you can't trivialize our attempts with a false sense of superiority.

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candidone1 wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
candidone1 wrote:
Culture of life huh?...How 'bout these folks?

Quote:
152 Executions while Bush was Governor

152 Claude Jones 12/07/2000
151 Daniel Hittle 12/06/2000
150 Garry Miller 12/05/2000.......

The fact that you think some murderers should be executed does not obligate you to also think that innocent people should also be executed. You are trying so hard to make something of nothing.

Brandon, I'll kindly refer you back to your outright and ad nauseum denial of the validity of the Schiavo outcome.
If you wish to discuss "something out of nothing" after that, I'd gladly entertain the dialogue, but until then, I respectfully ask that you hold yourself to the same standard you hold other a2k members.
That way you can't trivialize our attempts with a false sense of superiority.

The point you were making was illogical in implying that wanting some murderers executed was inconsistent with not wanting innocent people executed.

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Just a quick observation on "hypocracy" as written by several persons on several threads.

It is spelled correctly as follows: hypocrisy.

Many people have misspelled the word -- unless people have coined a new word that puts "democracy" and "hypocrisy" together to form "hypocracy" as a shorthand reference to the hypocrisy of the majoritarian government?

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Debra_Law wrote:

Just a quick observation on "hypocracy" as written by several persons on several threads.

It is spelled correctly as follows: hypocrisy.

Many people have misspelled the word -- unless people have coined a new word that puts "democracy" and "hypocrisy" together to form "hypocracy" as a shorthand reference to the hypocrisy of the majoritarian government?

Now THAT'S some clever thinking there, Debra_Law. It would seem the political party in power has certainly demonstrated a strong propensity for hypocrisy as of late. Perhaps in a blatant attempt to convert America into a theocracy, we've now entered the larva stages of a "hypocracy."

:wink:

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Brandon9000 wrote:

candidone1 wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
candidone1 wrote:
Culture of life huh?...How 'bout these folks?

Quote:
152 Executions while Bush was Governor

152 Claude Jones 12/07/2000
151 Daniel Hittle 12/06/2000
150 Garry Miller 12/05/2000.......

The fact that you think some murderers should be executed does not obligate you to also think that innocent people should also be executed. You are trying so hard to make something of nothing.

Brandon, I'll kindly refer you back to your outright and ad nauseum denial of the validity of the Schiavo outcome.
If you wish to discuss "something out of nothing" after that, I'd gladly entertain the dialogue, but until then, I respectfully ask that you hold yourself to the same standard you hold other a2k members.
That way you can't trivialize our attempts with a false sense of superiority.

The point you were making was illogical in implying that wanting some murderers executed was inconsistent with not wanting innocent people executed.

Well, you either cherish and value human life, or you don't.
As per this thead, I simply illustrated a certain degree of hypocrisy (is that right DL?) that exists with the current administration's culture of life philosophy.
Not too sure where I got illogical. We are talking of the hypocrisy of said philosophy--which looks inconsistent if you examine some of the language Bush uses when he speaks of it.

Like I said, you either value life, or you don't.

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Dookiestix: You could be right. Hypocracy could be a form of government that falls somewhere between democracy as a starting point and theocracy as the ending point:

democracy -- hypocracy -- theocracy

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Debra_Law wrote:

Just a quick observation on "hypocracy" as written by several persons on several threads.

It is spelled correctly as follows: hypocrisy.

Many people have misspelled the word -- unless people have coined a new word that puts "democracy" and "hypocrisy" together to form "hypocracy" as a shorthand reference to the hypocrisy of the majoritarian government?

Well, gee. I suppose it's easier to comment on spelling errors than to actually address the issue. (Oh, dear. I split an infinitive....)

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OK.

They Republican leadership passed a federal law directed at a single individual. The best justification I've heard is that it is better to err on the side of caution.... Death is permanent, it is impossible to recover from.

But the same person who signed the law is the same person who allowed executions to take place under his stewardship. Are you convinced that our criminal courts are perfect? If not, then there is a possibility that innocent people are on death row. Shouldn't we err on the side of caution in these cases?

I cannot reconcile these two attitudes.

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Is the "culture of life" a culture of hypocrisy?

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