Does Bush's religious faith inappropriately dictatate policy

Love the sinner, hate the sin is a Jerry Falwellism. He said it at least 10 times on the Larry King show he was on with Larry Flynt a few years ago. It was a hilarious evening.

Falwell was expounding the virtues of love toward Larry and reminding him that he had been both saved and baptised (Jerry dunked Larry in the river himself.)

Larry looked quite seriously at the audience and said, "and I have a message for all you born agains out there. Take your lithium and you'll get better."

I've laughed for years over this.

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Aha Lola! You articulated just what I was fishing for: abuse, alcohol, and narcissism. The first two are exactly what I've seen, and the third ties it together. (Whose face do they see in the water, theirs or God's?!)

Aside from Miller, who's written about narcissism lately?

Blatham, I'd argue the complexity issue when it comes to the likes of Osama. I think that's precisely why he's so powerful, charismatic. He understands, utilizes fundamentalism while being on a much high level than most fundamentalists in his knowledge and experience of complexity -- social and political. And economic...

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I see all these factors residing simultaneously (extremely frightening) in some human brains: psychopathology, and the desire to retreat into comfortable simplicity. Does none of the rest of us any good. Destructive for society as well. Destructive for everything, actually. So how do we counteract these basic tendencies and weaknesses in the minds of others? Logic will go nowhere, or rational discourse. So what then?

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Lola: a personal observation of mine involves the use of NLP techniques by almost all of the evangelical, fundamentalist, born again types. the visual-auditory anchoring=connections. if you watch carefully for an example the "preacher" will raise both his arms and his voice when saying "god" for several repetitions then gradually move into saying "I" with the same anchoring cues. just a example as their are many many other of these NLP techniques used with this group. NPL=Neuro/linguistist programing. thoughts?

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Gosh, no one seems to be buying my wonderful shiny thesis tonight.

Let me try it this way. If we were to ask Osama or Bill Bennett where the world or universe came from, we'd get a simple (and certain) answer - God did it. If we were to ask for grounds to notions of right and wrong, we'd get a simple and certain answer - scripture. If we were to sit their kids down and begin explaining the theory of natual selection or the second law of thermodynamics (universal heat death) we'd get kicked out of the house for complexifying their kids' noggins.

I don't mean to suggest that only theists are guilty, but a fundamentalist theist is a particular sort of creature who has more similarities of thought process with a Klan member than he would with Saint Francis or Augustine.

Have you not noticed how some people always steer towards the simple answer? Generalities fall easily from their tongues, as in "blacks are..." or "liberals alwyas think....". Sitting underneath these generalizations is a binary view (the 'blacks' above sits in opposition to some idealized notion of 'whites') and the shades of grey between are denied or not even perceived.

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Oooh, Dys. I did some training in that once and when (slow to catch on... duh...) I figured out what it was all about, I walked out. I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. But I don't think these guys need NLP necessarily, though I'm sure it's handy... shudder...

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blatham; from what i remember from grad school what you are talking about was called the "F-Scale" which denoted tolerance for ambiguity. simply put, a need for concepts based in concrete operations that never advanced into formal operations. (ability to abstract into grays rather than black and white)

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Sad to say, I think simplicity is built into our educational set-up, Blatham. When I found out that good universities still use multiple choice testing, I kind of gave up any hope for the future.

I think we've been having trouble with the concept of gray in these very forums.

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Authoritarian Personality.

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Yes, authoritarianism is precisely the social structure which accomodates such a mindset. Thus one might predict that such folks would attempt to limit liberties, press for unanimity, jump readily to war rather than engage in diplomacy, and generally behave the way this administration is behaving.

dys...F scale is not a term I am familiar with. Am I right in assuming this is a term from psychology? I have no training whatsoever in this field, but it sounds very close to what I'm pointing to.

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tartarin; i wasn't thinking those people had any NPL training, just my observation of similarities ( i was evicted from NLP training for challenging the ethics) its basically a tool for manipulation.

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Tartarin wrote:

Tell you what I just did with a frequent offender. I went to his profile and looked through his posts. Nine out of ten of them were aggressive, know-it-all, rude, and merciless (and most the rest were complaints that people were mean to him!!) Not you, Tres, but you get the bronze medal!

Tartarin - I make you the same offer I made snood. Show me one case where I attacked anyone in A2K without provocation. Show me where I lost my cool without first being provoked. Please. It will help me grow as a person. :wink: Otherwise, please keep your bronze medal. You could stick it on your mantle. Or if you don't have a mantle, PM me and I will be happy to offer you some other suggestions on where to stick it. Laughing

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Frank Apisa wrote:

What I recognize is that you are unable or unwilling to accept that you are wrong -- when you are wrong.

I was not wrong.

The legislature NEVER declared war on Iraq.

You were wrong to say I was wrong.

No problem. There are lots of people who cannot own up to mistakes -- and best we just drop this and get back to the discussion at hand.

Peace!

Frank - There's no shame in it if you can't understand my point.

Peace to you, too.

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Somehow, I doubt this portends "Peace in our time". Still, it is encouraging.

Let me add that an olive branch waves better, and clears more air, if it ain't wrapped around an axe handle.

Laughing

timber

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timberlandko wrote:

Somehow, I doubt this portends "Peace in our time". Still, it is encouraging.

Let me add that an olive branch waves better, and clears more air, if it ain't wrapped around an axe handle.

timber

Yeah, but that axe handle gives just the right heft.......

:wink:

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Request to thread monitor
I suggest that this topic be closed. The most recent posts are not on the original topic and have progressed into childish verbal gladiator sport. Since the posters show no respect for the topic I posted for discussion, I request that it be closed.

BumbleBeeBoogie

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I disagree with the Bee. I think this topic has merit and that all involved are ready and willing to settle down and "play nice".

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OK, Trespassers will, one should always have hope. I remind posters that the original topic is: Does Bush's religious faith inappropriately dictatate policy.

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Lola wrote:

Tres,

This mechanism is not different at all from any fanatical, dogmatic group. The point here is not what mechanism is being used but who is using it and to what ends. This fanatic is the President (or so he says) and this is dangerous business, to repeat myself.

I see. I misunderstood. I hardly think Bush is a fanatic, but I doubt that's a point that can be well debated. I guess I'm not terribly concerned if our President is missing the "richness and beauty of life", so long as he is working to protect us and our way of life.

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BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

OK, Trespassers will, one should always have hope. I remind posters that the original topic is: Does Bush's religious faith inappropriately dictatate policy.

Just to restate my position:

I think the question itself is flawed and rooted in bigotry. It's akin to asking whether a black politician's ethnicity inappropriately dictates policy. The issue should be the policies themselves, not his religion, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation. If you think policy X is a bad idea, make that argument, but I don't think "he pushed this policy because he's a Christian" is a valid complaint. Either you disagree with the policy itself and can articulate why, or you disagree with his religion and the policies are to you just evidence that it is bad that he believes what he believes (or that his skin is black or...). Does anyone not get that?

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Does Bush's religious faith inappropriately dictatate policy

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