9
   

Obstructionism: the ultimate trump card?

 
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2018 07:15 am
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

I'm saying that steady economic growth is the primary measure of economic success. And it is.

And yet that superficial measure hides all the ways in which the economy is failing at the micro-levels of business processes and consumer behavior.

Quote:
Are there some things that also play a factor? Possibly. As you've spent the last several posts dancing around and throwing out impenetrable generalities trying to make yourself seem like an authority, name some specific examples.

'Impenetrable generalities' implies that you've attempted to think critically and apply them without success.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2018 07:24 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

There is no deep seated problem in this country; we have almost free education, freedom of speech and to travel, opportunities for all, and a legal system that protects privacy and our properties.

Industrialism has grown to unsustainable levels and individual/household productivity has declined as a byproduct of increasing division of labor and specialization. People are driving around sprawling, deforested areas looking for jobs in service, administration, etc. that waste more resources than they are worth. Education has become watered down to a grooming system to babysit people until they are old enough to feed into the waste economy that generates GDP by selling term-contracts, debt, and infrastructure investments to support people driving around to stimulate investments.

Major reforms are needed to achieve environmental/resource sustainability, and the public and business is nearly incapable of imagining solutions because they have become all but numb to the challenge of going beyond the status quo that makes money flow and pays their bills.

Quote:
It's not perfect, but it's the best any large country such as ours with so many races, religions, and cultures living - mostly peaceably - is the miracle of our founders. There is no equivalent country to ours based on our mix of peoples. It's just sad to see the discrimination blacks must endure for the longest time in our country's history.

Many blacks live the true American dream more so than many whites, by which I mean that there are black neighborhoods where people are building their own lives with their own hands and sweat, often with results perceived as inferior to 'higher class' people (most white), who have become spoiled by corporate systems that produce everything from their houses to their clothes and vehicles so that life is little more for them than a fashion show where they show up and act the role they're expected to perform, so that they can pay the bills and avoid falling into payment-default hell.

The really sad thing is that the superiority culture reverses the black-white issue by construing the black culture as an inferior culture relative to the white corporate lifestyle. They do this to drive up housing prices in certain neighborhoods and that in turn causes business to raise their prices and wages to pay those higher residential prices. Overall this causes inflation, which makes it impossible for lower-income people, disproportionately black, to save money for the future. Many (low-income) blacks and others with low income thus give up on the hope of saving money and fall ever deeper into debt trying to live it up while they are making it.

There are liberal spenders and conservative spenders, both black and white. If the liberal spenders would cut back their spending and secure the economy against inflation, it would be better for everyone, white and black; but because a liberal-consumption ethic has been marketed as the measure of success, too many people perceive withdrawal from consumer lifestyle addictions as real deprivation and thus they go on spending themselves into debt and preventing the vicious cycle of debt-driven consumerism from subsiding and giving way to a better, more responsible economy.

Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2018 11:17 am
@livinglava,
Quote livinglava:
Quote:
Many blacks live the true American dream more so than many whites, by which I mean that there are black neighborhoods where people are building their own lives with their own hands and sweat, often with results perceived as inferior to 'higher class' people (most white), who have become spoiled by corporate systems that produce everything from their houses to their clothes and vehicles
So where are these black neighborhoods where you claim the black people living in them build their own houses with their bare hands, their own vehicle with their own hands and make their own clothing?

Name some. Pics would be welcome as well.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2018 01:45 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

Quote livinglava:
Quote:
Many blacks live the true American dream more so than many whites, by which I mean that there are black neighborhoods where people are building their own lives with their own hands and sweat, often with results perceived as inferior to 'higher class' people (most white), who have become spoiled by corporate systems that produce everything from their houses to their clothes and vehicles
So where are these black neighborhoods where you claim the black people living in them build their own houses with their bare hands, their own vehicle with their own hands and make their own clothing?

Name some. Pics would be welcome as well.

I don't need to be calling any localities out for scrutiny in this discussion, but go into any lower/working class neighborhood (black, white, mixed, or whatever) with old houses and see how they look compared with newer subdivisions where construction and renovations were done by contractors. DIY projects are often viewed as 'shoddy' instead of being respected for what they are, people living the American dream of self-sustenance. A culture of aesthetic elitism grew together with industrial mass-production, and so now when people take things like old cookie-cutter subdivision houses or whatever and refurbish them or otherwise re-use them, it is viewed as second-rate or poverty instead of as people using skill and ingenuity to conserve and utilize resources so that they can suffice with less spending and thus save more money.

There is a culture of ridiculing thrift in order to goad people into spending more money into the corporate economy. Then the corporations hire people into performing their little scripted roles in their hierarchical status positions. They are turned into uncritical consumers who just go around spending money and obeying management to avoid being sent into debt-collection hell.
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2018 05:22 pm
@livinglava,
Quote livinglava:
Quote:
I don't need to be calling any localities out for scrutiny in this discussion,
If you want to prove that you are not making things up, yes you do.

Concrete examples, lava. Enough of the flowery language, we want to see concrete examples.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2018 06:20 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

Quote livinglava:
Quote:
I don't need to be calling any localities out for scrutiny in this discussion,
If you want to prove that you are not making things up, yes you do.

Concrete examples, lava. Enough of the flowery language, we want to see concrete examples.

Have you ever been in a predominantly (poor or working class) black neighborhood?
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2018 07:17 pm
@livinglava,
I'm a landlord in such a neighborhood.

Woodlawn, Chicago.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2018 08:25 pm
@livinglava,
Productivity has increased because of automation. Where have you been all these years? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-productivity-surges-in-spring-to-more-than-three-year-high-2018-08-15. However, pay has not kept up with the increase in productivity. Wage stagnation charts: https://www.google.com/search?q=us+wage+stagnation+chart&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKp-zlvZbeAhVJGTQIHedvCJwQ7Al6BAgFEA0&biw=2560&bih=1377
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Oct, 2018 08:11 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Productivity has increased because of automation. Where have you been all these years? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-productivity-surges-in-spring-to-more-than-three-year-high-2018-08-15. However, pay has not kept up with the increase in productivity. Wage stagnation charts: https://www.google.com/search?q=us+wage+stagnation+chart&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKp-zlvZbeAhVJGTQIHedvCJwQ7Al6BAgFEA0&biw=2560&bih=1377

Do you think it is good for the environment and sustainability to increase everyone's purchasing power just because more can be produced per capita?

Imo, what would be far better would be for increased productivity through automation to be used to give people more time to spend managing what they have better. E.g. yes robots can build more cars with less human labor, but don't build more cars and give everyone a car more often because that would only lead to more sprawl and deforestation. Instead, give people the time to ride bikes and narrow roads to create more reforested land and reduce the human labor/time spent on infrastructure projects.

In general, environmental/resource sustainability would benefit from people devoting less money and time to industrial consumerism and using that saved time to put effort into using resources more efficiently and reducing their consumption/land-use footprint. Switch to bicycling for transportation, narrow roads, replant trees in the lanes that you eliminate from the multilane roads, etc.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Oct, 2018 10:08 am
@livinglava,
Done in a responsible way, yes.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:15 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Done in a responsible way, yes.

Well, the problem currently is that the same people who ostensibly seek to heal the environment and achieve sustainability also promote socialism which invigorates the economy by stimulating GDP to inflationary levels, which tax savings and thus push people to work harder, which in industrialist societies results in highly efficient machine-assisted clearing of land and harvesting/processing of natural resources.

Non-industrial societies are also usually irresponsible in how they approach land-use and resource management. There are very few people in this world who truly seem to have the capacity to minimize their economic footprint and allow nature to heal and restore the land to its traditionally-sustainable (pre-human) form. Most people seem to assume that restoring the land and climate makes human life impossible, when in reality we are highly intelligent animals capable of living very well while protecting, preserving, and supporting the natural ecosystems that sustain us.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Oct, 2018 07:57 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Well, the problem currently is that the same people who ostensibly seek to heal the environment and achieve sustainability also promote socialism which invigorates the economy by stimulating GDP to inflationary levels,...

The top economies of the world: https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/
Where did you study Economics?
0 Replies
 
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Oct, 2018 10:17 pm
@livinglava,
Quote Blickers:
Quote:
Concrete examples, lava. Enough of the flowery language, we want to see concrete examples.


Quote livinglava:
Quote:
Have you ever been in a predominantly (poor or working class) black neighborhood?
Sorry, your answer is not a concrete example of a black neighborhood which you claim are numerous where black people build their own houses with their bare hands and their own vehicle with their bare hands.

Instead, your answer is an example of what a BS artist comes up with when he's made up nonsense and has nothing to back it up.

Examples, lava, let's see some concrete examples of these many black neighborhoods where you say all the black people built their houses with their bare hands. We're waiting.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Oct, 2018 05:44 am
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

Quote Blickers:
Quote:
Concrete examples, lava. Enough of the flowery language, we want to see concrete examples.


Quote livinglava:
Quote:
Have you ever been in a predominantly (poor or working class) black neighborhood?
Sorry, your answer is not a concrete example of a black neighborhood which you claim are numerous where black people build their own houses with their bare hands and their own vehicle with their bare hands.

Instead, your answer is an example of what a BS artist comes up with when he's made up nonsense and has nothing to back it up.

Examples, lava, let's see some concrete examples of these many black neighborhoods where you say all the black people built their houses with their bare hands. We're waiting.

Don't push people to divulge specific information, either personal or collective, over the internet. There are too many crazies and jerks out there waiting to pounce on anything specifically identified. If you can't discuss something in general, just drop it. It's not that important.
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Oct, 2018 12:26 am
@livinglava,
So now you are trying to say that safety and security are the reasons you can't name one of the many black neighborhoods you claim consisted of houses that were built by hand by their owners?

How ridiculous. Neighborhoods are discussed in the media and among people all the time, including the ethnicity of the people who live there, the style of the houses, sometimes the names of the landowners sold the land to the developers.

Fact is, there really are few, if any, black neighborhoods where the owners built the houses themselves by hand, but your whole theory depends on them existing when they don't. That's why you're hemming and hawing about this.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Oct, 2018 06:00 am
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

So now you are trying to say that safety and security are the reasons you can't name one of the many black neighborhoods you claim consisted of houses that were built by hand by their owners?

How ridiculous. Neighborhoods are discussed in the media and among people all the time, including the ethnicity of the people who live there, the style of the houses, sometimes the names of the landowners sold the land to the developers.

Fact is, there really are few, if any, black neighborhoods where the owners built the houses themselves by hand, but your whole theory depends on them existing when they don't. That's why you're hemming and hawing about this.

I didn't say people built their houses from scratch by hand. I think more people would do that if there weren't prohibitive codes, impact fees, etc. What I said is that people do more of their own labor, which is considered 'shoddy' by white/middle-class standards. Now, if you look at the white/middle-class people who look down on 'shoddy' working class neighborhoods, they are mostly not skilled craftsmen who renovate their properties with their own hands and sweat. They are mostly employees, often at the managerial level, who make enough money to afford skilled contractors and expensive building materials. They pay professionals to fix their properties and vehicles and then look down on others who do their own labor when the aesthetic quality of the result isn't as good as that done by the contractors they hired with their big manager money.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Oct, 2018 10:39 am
@livinglava,
Middle class people do not look down or up based on income or anything else. When we meet people, we don't ask what their income or their home address are or whether they rent or own. Some of us have it more "lucky" than others. We bought our home in Sunnyvale in the mid-1970's for $52,000, and it's now worth about $2 million. It's because when we bought our home, it was just a sleepy suburb of San Francisco and San Jose. During the interim, the high tech industry developed here, and all of a sudden, cost of homes skyrocketed. Just another case of a lotto win.
RABEL222
 
  3  
Reply Tue 23 Oct, 2018 01:36 pm
@cicerone imposter,
In the little town I live in in the 50's I bought my house for 6700 dollars. It is now worth 500 dollars. Wait a minute, somthings wrong here!
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Oct, 2018 07:26 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Why would any sane person support the GOP?
Because we want to be protected from the Democrats' efforts to violate the Second Amendment.

cicerone imposter wrote:
Obamacare doesn't need replacement, it needs to be fixed.
Too bad the Democrats are not trying to fix it. Yes, the Republicans are trying to break it. That's bad too. But it sure would be nice if the Democrats cared about fixing it.

cicerone imposter wrote:
Does social security need to be fixed? Absolutely, but congress sits on their arses and do nothing. There's enough money in the social security trust fund to last until 2034. All congress need to do is to extend the age of benefit and/or increase taxes on the wealthy. These fixes are easy to do if they act now. Waiting until the crisis hits is the wrong thing to do.
The Republicans have tried to fix it. The Democrats insist on leaving it broken.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Oct, 2018 09:09 pm
@RABEL222,
I gave you a thumb’s up, because you gave me my good laugh for today. Mr. Green
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/27/2024 at 01:16:29