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There is no soul or spirit at all...

 
 
Eorl
 
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 09:41 pm
...and no-one can prove otherwise. Comments?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 5,097 • Replies: 114
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 09:53 pm
Just for starters, I would like to suggest that "spirits and souls" can have more than a religious aspect to them. We've often heard the term "soul mate" which has nothing to do with 'religion.' I think it would do well to keep an open mind, and see where it takes us. Wink
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 09:55 pm
I always love Ray Charles and I'm a big fan of Bombay Sapphire Gin. Ergo, there is soul and spirit.

Sorry couldn't help myself.

In the same vein you can't prove their is love or friendship either.

And just because you can't prove it now doesn't mean it won't be proved. Genetic heritance had been speculated about since greek classical times but it wasn't until Crick and Watson described the mechanism in the 1950s that there was any kind of proof.

And just to be completely disjointed. I don't really believe in a soul, though I'd like to think I have an essence that transcends the physical - but I freely admit that's wishful thinking if not self-delusion.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 09:59 pm
"Soul" as it relates to music has a whole different meaning than the definition from religion. It's also true of the word "spirit." "Spirit of the mind" implies some agreement on how two people think.
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dauer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 10:53 pm
I think the soul is a metaphor for those aspects of ourselves to which we cannot assign physicality, an all inclusive model for the experiential and psychological aspects of self, although in some cases there will be a distinction between the animal drives and that which transcends the animal drives. There is a soul in the same way as there is an id, ego, and superego. They're both models that help us speak about elements of ourselves/the world that go beyond the physical.

Before you say, "Immortality! Immortality!" (does that look too loud with caps? Sorry.) There is nothing that suggests immortality of the soul in the Torah, nor even that it is really separate from the body at all. That's likely a later influence on Judaism and Christianity. What is the most central, key concept of the soul? I presented what I think it is.

Dauer
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:01 pm
Re: There is no soul or spirit at all...
Eorl wrote:
...and no-one can prove otherwise. Comments?


No Soul?

What are you basing this assumption on, your own experiences, an opinion, a book or what someone has told you? Or just maybe it seemed like the thing to say at the time...

I personally would establish first what a "soul" is before denying it's existence. Smile
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:07 pm
RexRed, that is exactly the question I'm presenting.

If you claim something exists then it falls to you demonstrate that it does, rather than on me to prove that it doesn't (it is not possible to prove the negative)

So, what does soul / spirit mean to you and how do you know it exists?
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:14 pm
dauer wrote:
I think the soul is a metaphor for those aspects of ourselves to which we cannot assign physicality, an all inclusive model for the experiential and psychological aspects of self, although in some cases there will be a distinction between the animal drives and that which transcends the animal drives. There is a soul in the same way as there is an id, ego, and superego. They're both models that help us speak about elements of ourselves/the world that go beyond the physical.

Before you say, "Immortality! Immortality!" (does that look too loud with caps? Sorry.) There is nothing that suggests immortality of the soul in the Torah, nor even that it is really separate from the body at all. That's likely a later influence on Judaism and Christianity. What is the most central, key concept of the soul? I presented what I think it is.

Dauer


I will politely argue your point that the body, soul and spirit are separated not after Judaism and Christianity but by the book of Genesis itself.

body=formed
soul=made
spirit=created
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:20 pm
Eorl wrote:
RexRed, that is exactly the question I'm presenting.

If you claim something exists then it falls to you demonstrate that it does, rather than on me to prove that it doesn't (it is not possible to prove the negative)

So, what does soul / spirit mean to you and how do you know it exists?


I believe the choice is your own... If you want to have a soul you have to live like you are alive...
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:25 pm
Re: There is no soul or spirit at all...
Eorl wrote:
...and no-one can prove otherwise. Comments?


And until a few hundred years ago nobody could prove that the world was not flat! Rolling Eyes
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dauer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:27 pm
Quote:
I will politely argue your point that the body, soul and spirit are separated not after Judaism and Christianity but by the book of Genesis itself.

body=formed
soul=made
spirit=created


I meant only that the immortal soul is a later idea but now that I look at what I wrote it was unclear. However, there is no clear indication in the story of creation that there is a soul.
0 Replies
 
theantibuddha
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:49 pm
Re: There is no soul or spirit at all...
Intrepid wrote:
And until a few hundred years ago nobody could prove that the world was not flat! Rolling Eyes


Well except for the greeks... and a lot of sailors... and the phoenicians I think, not to mention the muslims...

In fact it was only christians who couldn't prove that. Odd, hmmm?
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:57 pm
dauer wrote:
Quote:
I will politely argue your point that the body, soul and spirit are separated not after Judaism and Christianity but by the book of Genesis itself.

body=formed
soul=made
spirit=created


I meant only that the immortal soul is a later idea but now that I look at what I wrote it was unclear. However, there is no clear indication in the story of creation that there is a soul.


Again, I must with respect, argue that Genesis does record three separate acts of God upon creation that clearly indicate that all creatures consist of two parts body and soul and humans may receive a third totally separate part referred to as spirit.

God did not just simply "form" the body of Adam and the body spontaneously on it's own came alive... God had to do a second act and breathe into Adams nostrils "the breath of life" and man became a living soul... there are two acts of God here not one. The third act of God? God created man in his own image.... spirit.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 12:05 am
Re: There is no soul or spirit at all...
theantibuddha wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
And until a few hundred years ago nobody could prove that the world was not flat! Rolling Eyes


Well except for the greeks... and a lot of sailors... and the phoenicians I think, not to mention the muslims...

In fact it was only christians who couldn't prove that. Odd, hmmm?


Errors, often live in our understanding due to how we perceive what we read. Smile
0 Replies
 
gravy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 01:57 am
If someone is challenging existence of soul or spirit, telling them they exist because god said so seems circumnavigational.
0 Replies
 
fab617
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 02:43 am
Of course the soul and/spirit exist; as abstract entities. It is our attempt to to determine, or capsulize the essence of our being. I'm thinking, it may be the id.
And speaking of immortality...Does the fact that we will never know death, mean that we are immortal? I mean, think about it...Even if you were in a situation where you are saying, or thinking, "So, this is the after life, I have died, and went to Heaven", (or whatever Twisted Evil ) You are still concious. You can not experience unconciousness! Just like when you are sleep, you have no awareness of the time you were sleep, outside of the relatively short period of dreaming.
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 07:02 am
I believe that we are a 'soul, mind, etc. and that we have a body. Scientists are able to tap into the cerebrial cord, and they can make people move their arms, legs, and digits in general. However they have never been able to change conscious descisions in a person (good/evil). I believe that the brain and our actually being work together, but that they are not the same thing.
0 Replies
 
dauer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 10:39 am
RexRed wrote:
dauer wrote:
Quote:
I will politely argue your point that the body, soul and spirit are separated not after Judaism and Christianity but by the book of Genesis itself.

body=formed
soul=made
spirit=created


I meant only that the immortal soul is a later idea but now that I look at what I wrote it was unclear. However, there is no clear indication in the story of creation that there is a soul.


Again, I must with respect, argue that Genesis does record three separate acts of God upon creation that clearly indicate that all creatures consist of two parts body and soul and humans may receive a third totally separate part referred to as spirit.

God did not just simply "form" the body of Adam and the body spontaneously on it's own came alive... God had to do a second act and breathe into Adams nostrils "the breath of life"


Which in itself does not suggest a soul. You are reading into the text. The text only suggests that God gave Adam breath, which is always a sign that something is living.

Quote:
and man became a living soul...


Where does it say that? If I remember correctly the word used is nefesh which can be found in such statements as "the nefesh is in the blood" and such. The Torah itself makes no indication that nefesh means soul and I'm sure even your concordances are forced to translate it as life or something similar sometimes.

Quote:
there are two acts of God here not one. The third act of God? God created man in his own image.... spirit.


Again you are reading into the text. All it says is that man is created b'tzelem Elohim. If you interpret b'tzelem to imply "spirit" as in an entity separate from the body then you are reading into the text.

As I said earlier, there is no clear indication of a soul in the Torah.

Dauer
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 02:48 pm
Daur

If life just spontaneously happened then an egg would not need a sperm... It would just grow on it's own... think about that one for a bit...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 03:05 pm
also

Isaiah 43:7
Even every one [human] that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Comment:
created=spirit
made=soul
formed=body

Are you saying God created and formed but he did not "make" anything? That contradicts this scripture... If these words (formed, made and created) meant the same thing they would not be in the same verse.

Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Comment:
It seems I am not the only one that separates these words. The first century Christians believed that the soul and body were separate..

Now, you have not shown me biblical scripture that says the soul and body are one act of God... Is this because it is believed out of theological tradition and has no biblical footing?

Now your doctrine combining the soul and body only confuses the understanding of further thought.

Later Christian concepts cannot even be understood without a firm understanding of body, soul and spirit.

I heard it once said that, "Body, soul and spirit are the crux of Christianity"...
0 Replies
 
 

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