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Bush concedes

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 07:29 am
A model for Social Security reform
A case study already exists in Galveston County, Texas ?- and might offer some lessons for lawmakers in Washington.

By Ray Holbrook with Alcestis "Cooky" Oberg

The current debate about reforming Social Security reminds me of the discussions that occurred in Galveston County, Texas, in 1980, when our county workers were offered a different, and better, retirement alternative to Social Security: They reacted with keen interest and some knee-jerk fear of the unknown. But after 24 years, folks here can say unequivocally that when Galveston County pulled out of the Social Security system in 1981, we were on the road to providing our workers with a better deal than Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal.

When I was county judge in 1979, many county workers were concerned about the soundness of Social Security, as many people are today. We could either stay with it ?- and its inevitable tax increases and higher retirement ages ?- or find a better way. We sought an "alternative plan" that provided the same or better benefits, required no tax increases and was risk-free. Furthermore, we wanted the benefits to be like a savings account that could be passed on to family members upon death.

Our plan, put together by financial experts, was a "banking model" rather than an "investment model." To eliminate the risks of the up-and-down stock market, workers' contributions were put into conservative fixed-rate guaranteed annuities, rather than fluctuating stocks, bonds or mutual funds. Our results have been impressive: We've averaged about 6.5% annual rate of return over 24 years. And we've provided substantially better benefits in all three Social Security categories: retirement, survivorship, disability.

Upon retirement after 30 years, and assuming a more conservative 5% rate of return, all workers would do better for the same contribution as Social Security:

•Workers making $17,000 a year are expected to receive about 50% more per month on our alternative plan than on Social Security ?- $1,036 instead of $683.

•Workers making $26,000 a year will make almost double Social Security, $1,500 instead of $853.

•Workers making $51,000 a year will get $3,103 instead of $1,368.

•Workers making $75,000 or more will nearly triple Social Security, $4,540 instead of $1,645.

•Our survivorship benefits pay four times a worker's annual salary ?- a minimum of $75,000 to a maximum $215,000 ?- rather than Social Security's customary onetime $255 survivorship to a spouse (with no minor children). If the worker dies before retirement, the survivors receive not only the full survivorship but get generous accidental death benefits, too.

•Our disability benefit pays 60% of an individual's salary, better than Social Security's.

In 1980, labor unions and some traditionally liberal Democrats provided mighty opposition. They considered taxpayer-fed Big Government programs the only secure ones, to the exclusion of other options. However, we held meetings that included debates with Social Security officials and put it to a vote: Our workers passed it by a 3-to-1 margin in 1981 ?- just in time.

We got our plan in place before the U.S. Congress passed a "reform" bill in 1983 that closed the door for local governments to opt out of Social Security.

To be sure, our plan wasn't perfect, and we've had to make some adjustments. For instance, a few of our retired county workers are critical of the plan today because they say they are making less money than they would have on Social Security. This is because our plan allowed workers to make "hardship" withdrawals from the retirement plan during their working years. Some workers withdrew funds for current financial problems and consequently robbed their own future benefits. We closed that option down in January 2005.

Congress might consider making participation in any privatization plan voluntary at first. We made our plan voluntary in the beginning, and 70% joined. It later became mandatory. Now, there is full participation. Also, if there were some residual uncertainty about privatizing a portion of worker contributions, a plan could be devised in which low-income earners would be guaranteed the same funds they would get with total participation in Social Security.

Our experience has shown that even low-income workers would do better, but a guarantee would ease their worries. Moderate- and higher-income workers would do much better, as ours do, because they have invested more in the plan and are not prejudicially punished or "topped out" on retirement benefits, as they are in Social Security.

In today's debate about whether to partially privatize Social Security, the Galveston County plan is sometimes demagogued. But our experience should be judged factually and fairly, not emotionally, politically or on the basis of hearsay. We sought a secure, risk-free alternative to the Social Security system, and it has worked very well for nearly a quarter-century. Our retirees have prospered, and our working people have had the security of generous disability and accidental death benefits.

Most important, we didn't force our children and grandchildren to be unduly taxed and burdened for our retirement care while these fine young people are struggling to raise and provide for their own families.

What has been good for Galveston County may, indeed, be good for this country.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 08:07 am
This has been pretty well discussed on the Social Security, it's not what you think thread.

For Thomas Hayden, maybe you could pop over onto the other thread and explain how the new plan will make the situation better even if it doesn't solve the problem. We've been unable to factually show that it will improve anything. Also, dems (whoever you are including in that) are not in fact advocating doing nothing.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 10:57 am
No, the Democraps don't advocate doing nothing, they want to raise FICA taxes to cover the loss. FICA is already outrageous, any working stiff like me would agree. What I don't undertand is why I have to pay it. Isn't it voluntary? Why is my employer required to withold it? It's MY future, after all. Shouldn't I, the one working, be able to decide how best to invest my retirement funds?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:11 am
cjhsa wrote:
No, the Democraps don't advocate doing nothing, they want to raise FICA taxes to cover the loss. FICA is already outrageous, any working stiff like me would agree. What I don't undertand is why I have to pay it. Isn't it voluntary? Why is my employer required to withold it? It's MY future, after all. Shouldn't I, the one working, be able to decide how best to invest my retirement funds?


Actually, they propose raising the salary cap for which FICA is witheld. And your employer not only has to withold it, he has to also match it.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:11 am
Yeah, you working stiffs in Silicon Valley sure have it tough.

McG:

Quote:
And there are other major problems with the Galveston system. As Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR) has noted, Galveston "contracted for a fixed-income annuity at an average annual rate of 8.6 percent. But there's no way the U.S. economy could live with interest rates that high over the long term; Galveston's example can't be generalized to the entire nation." Further, as Brookings Institution senior fellow Henry Aaron noted in his testimony to the Senate Committee on the Budget on January 19, 1999, in addition to lowered benefits for most workers, the Galveston plan "exposes all workers to risks that no social insurance plan should countenance," while failing to provide inflation protection or guaranteed annuities for spouses and benefits for divorced spouses. Aaron also noted that the Galveston system could not feasibly be translated to America as a whole: "Those who withdraw from Social Security run away from a burden that the nation cannot escape -- specifically, the obligation to pay off the unfunded liability -- leav[ing] that burden for those who remain under Social Security to pay."


http://mediamatters.org/items/200502100003

Don't trust mediamatters?

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/11006823.htm

Quote:
Critics maintain that instituting private accounts similar to Galveston's for all workers would cause harm for many.

"These plans won't work for most people and would destroy Social Security for the vast number of Americans who depend on it," said Eric Kingson, a professor of social work at Syracuse University who has studied the Galveston plan.

"What we can learn from the Galveston experience is who will win and who will lose if we move toward this privatization plan," he said. "People who work long and hard at relatively low wages get a proportionately higher benefit from Social Security, and that's because its purpose is to provide a basic set of protections for Americans."

The bottom line for many Galveston County retirees is the size of their check every month. And some say they have been bitterly disappointed.

"I get around $460 per month now, but under Social Security, I would have gotten $1,000," said Joyce Longcoy, who retired in 1998 after 23 years working for Galveston County. "They are putting this up to be a model for the rest of the country. Some model."


Don't bet on selling the Galveston or Chile plan as successes....

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:13 am
I know the employer is forced to match it, but why can't I just opt out? Eh?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:15 am
cjhsa wrote:
I know the employer is forced to match it, but why can't I just opt out? Eh?


For the same reason you can't opt out of taxes, I guess.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:22 am
If I were self employed, do I have to pay double FICA? I know it's suggested, but is it really enforced? I don't think so.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:30 am
Quote:
I know the employer is forced to match it, but why can't I just opt out? Eh?


Because the money you pay not only goes to help your retirement, but those around you who are in need. Which is what I suspect you really have a problem with, isn't it?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:34 am
I cannot support wealth redistribution, no. I should be able to either invest the (close to) 10% or give it directly to my parents and children. You apparently have a problem with that.

Does everyone hear that giant sucking sound?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:42 am
cjhsa wrote:
If I were self employed, do I have to pay double FICA? I know it's suggested, but is it really enforced? I don't think so.


I've had to pay double fica when I worked as an independent contractor. My husband currently pays double fica every time he gives himself a pay check.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:45 am
cjhsa wrote:
I cannot support wealth redistribution, no. I should be able to either invest the (close to) 10% or give it directly to my parents and children. You apparently have a problem with that.

Does everyone hear that giant sucking sound?


I look at it as just another basic societal need that we must pay taxes to support. I know there are those who think that roads should be private and that we should all just pay a toll to drive on every road. But most people understand that that's not what's best for the country as it restricts travel to only those who can afford it, which isn't good for commerce.

And yes, I do hear that giant sucking sound, but it's not old people that are on the other end with their mouths on the hose.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:47 am
Baldimo wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
There is a war between the ones who say there is a war and the ones who say there isn't.


I'd be voting for there is a war. But then again I am a neocon who has an insatiable blood lust for war and death. The higher the body count the better, the more money The Man can get the better, screw the poor and starving, they are to stupid to know the difference.


Gee, why is that not surprising?

Quote:
I cannot support wealth redistribution, no.


That's funny, because you've had no problem with Bush's tax cuts to the rich and the furthering demise of the middleclass. And now with new bankruptcy laws, city's running out of money, state budgets being cut by slashing important social programs, it would seem the redistribution of wealth continues unabated with this administration.

How about investing what you already get in your paycheck. You're certainly free to do that, and you can invest BEYOND the 10%.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:53 am
Quote:
I cannot support wealth redistribution, no. I should be able to either invest the (close to) 10% or give it directly to my parents and children. You apparently have a problem with that.

Does everyone hear that giant sucking sound?


As Dookie said, you certainly have no problem when the distribute more wealth to the already wealthy.

But, more to the point: you are forgetting your responsibility and obligation to the thousands, if not dozens of thousands, of those less fortunate who have worked hard their whole lives to make YOUR life easier, cleaner, educated, and safe. You owe them money, and SS is how you pay it. It's not a complicated concept.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 12:05 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
I cannot support wealth redistribution, no. I should be able to either invest the (close to) 10% or give it directly to my parents and children. You apparently have a problem with that.

Does everyone hear that giant sucking sound?


As Dookie said, you certainly have no problem when the distribute more wealth to the already wealthy.

But, more to the point: you are forgetting your responsibility and obligation to the thousands, if not dozens of thousands, of those less fortunate who have worked hard their whole lives to make YOUR life easier, cleaner, educated, and safe. You owe them money, and SS is how you pay it. It's not a complicated concept.

Cycloptichorn


How do you figure Anyone owes them money? Did they work hard their whole lives for free?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 12:16 pm
Quote:
How do you figure Anyone owes them money? Did they work hard their whole lives for free?


Nope. But they did critical jobs that need doing in society that don't pay well enough so that people can afford to save for their retirement.

What exactly do you gentlemen think would happen if all the minimum wage jobs stopped being performed? Or the low-wage jobs? Our society would collapse as sanitation, farming, education, construction, and many other industries came to a grinding halt.

Of course, you take all these things for granted and don't give a sh*t about the problems of the people who do these menial jobs for you, as long as your coffee is hot and your ditches are there to collect the rain, right?

We've instituted an economic system of reward based upon quite arbitrary factors. While this rewards the two of you, it punishes many. Competition will inevitably put some people on the lower end; and those people don't just go away when they retire, they still need food, medical care, etc.

It's a simple equation, like I said before. But I'll spell it out for you simply:

We NEED poor people to do our jobs in society.

Since we KEEP them poor through low pay/unwillingness to raise minimum and general wages/unwillingness to pay higher taxes,

We HAVE to give them some sort of retirement plan or suffer the consequences as a society of having many poor elderly people.


----------

And this doesn't even COUNT the people who have lost their fortunes due to bad investments, or divorces, deaths in the family, and most importantly sickness and illness.

Do you people really believe that you live in a bubble, where hundreds of poor people AREN'T working hard to support your level of comfort? WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 12:30 pm
Those jobs pay what they pay because that's what the market supports. No one is twisting anyone's arms to do those jobs and theyare hardly career jobs.

You seem to believe that we have a caste system in America and that the higher castes have some sort of responsibility for the lower. Well let me be the first to tell you that's a huge load of bull. Everyone has the same opportunities to be successful in America. That some do not take advantage of what they have available to them is not my fault and I fail to see why I, or anyone else, should be expected to pay for other peoples mistakes.

You say "we NEED poor people to do our jobs in society" - Holy Smokes! Why kind of liberal thought is that? We NEED jobs done, it doesn't matter who does them. People get paid a fair wage to perform those jobs. People have options available to them if they no longer wish to perform those jobs.

I have personally seen many rags to riches stories in my home town. We have a huge population of Bosnian refigees. They came here with nothing, but they have sacrificed their time and their labor and now they are quite well off. A friend of mine came here with his family in 1996, he worked two jobs, one as a janitor, the other as a mechanic. He now owns his own garage and makes more money than I do. I used to buy the beer, now he does.

You seem to believe that society should be responsible for the citizenry. I believe it's the other way around. I doubt you will ever understand what I mean by that.
0 Replies
 
username removed 3 18 05
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 12:51 pm
Everyone has the same opportunities to be successful in America.
Quote:


A startlingly ignorant remark, if indeed you are serious.
0 Replies
 
username removed 3 18 05
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 01:14 pm
It WOULD be nice if everyone had the ability (and ruthlessness) to bomb a country from afar and simply wait for his Haliburton and defense industry stock to go through the roof once it comes time to rebuild what you've demolished. As for the victims--who cares? The ragheads deserved it, right?

I believe people with this point of view are known as "values voters."
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 01:37 pm
Quote:
If I were self employed, do I have to pay double FICA? I know it's suggested, but is it really enforced? I don't think so.


Suggested? I guess you don't know much about tax law. There isn't much "suggestion" to it.

If you are self employed you get the benefit of more tax write offs but you do have to pay the full FICA.
0 Replies
 
 

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