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Little Girls and Beauty

 
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 04:00 pm
It worked for George W, didn't it?
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 04:52 pm
First an athletic scholarship....then the White House. Go for it!
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margo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 05:35 pm
Cheerleading at 5.....only in America!
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 05:51 pm
4. ;-)

You're against it then, margo?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 10:08 pm
I say let her. She's young and no doubt you'll expose her to other athletic activities. Plus, there is a lot of gymnastics involved in cheerleading.
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 10:15 pm
I'm with FreeDuck, let her sozobe!
My daughter is every year in the towns christmas parade,
cheerleading vor her school, and I have to tag along. I hate
it, she loves it! I can wait and sit it out Wink

Don't deny her the "girly-girly" things, she'll snap out of
it. Once sozelet is in school, she won't have much time
for these activities, so enjoy, relax, and don't forget to
take pictures. Smile
0 Replies
 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 07:28 am
I googled "competitive cheerleading" evidently a complicated topic:

Check out: http://www.queenscheerleading.ca/

These are definitely not weak&adoring females.

By the by, do the cheerleaders cheer for the parks department?
0 Replies
 
the prince
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 07:35 am
Awww man, sozlet is almost as sweet as you Soz.

(she will get there eventually Wink )
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jespah
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 08:10 am
I apologize in advance for the length of this post. I've been thinking about the whole clothes thing, and it seems to me that sozlet is trying on a particular image. And that reminded me of when I visited an image consultant so I'm going to share with you some of the wisdom I got from her when it comes to fashion.

There are 6 main types of style. Everyone has all of them in them but 3 tend to dominate with 1 really dominating. Men have this, too, but the lines are not as clearly drawn as they are with women's fashions so I'll only comment on those.
    (1) [u]Alluring[/u] - Tight pants, low necklines and big hair are all hallmarks of the alluring look. Think of the Peg Bundy character in Married With Children and you've got alluring -- she was dressed in that style from head to foot. Alluring is intended to attract men in the short term. Fabrics tend to be plain (though leopard print is a favored patterned) and the clothes are often inexpensive. It's not likely that a hat would be worn. A lot of teenaged girls go through an alluring phase, and these days that phase is being pushed to a younger and younger age. It is intended to be provocative. (2) [u]Classic[/u] - Conservative clothing with few details are all a part of the classic look. Think of female bankers and lawyers and you come up with classic. It is intended to present an image of braininess and competency, but also of conservativism. Fabrics are of mixed quality but are not super-expensive, usually. Clothing is tailored but not tight. Hair is often straight, restrained or short. Jewelry, if worn, is minimal. Patterns are pinstripes, houndstooth and seersucker and some paisleys, and little else. A hat is unlikely, unless it is something practical for the elements or perhaps a beret or very basic fedora. (3) [u]Dramatic[/u] - Impact is the hallmark of the dramatic look. Capes, flowing clothing and sumptuous fabrics are all a part of the look. Think of classic divas like Maria Callas and that's the dramatic look. Prints are rare. Jewelry is large and interesting. The image is of being a high maintenance person. Hair tends to be long or styled in a unique manner, such as a French twist. Some hats might be worn, like Ingrid Bergman's in Casablanca, which is a very dramatically styled piece. (4) [u]Exotic[/u] - This is not the same as dramatic. Exotic involves offbeat or foreign-type looks, such as dashikis, but also Native American styles. Fabrics tend to be natural (flax, cotton, wool, that sort of thing) and patterns are everywhere. Jewelry is often composed of very different elements, such as wood and feathers. Cher often dresses in the exotic style. Image is of being different. A lot of teens go into this look, too - Goth and hippie chick are mixes of styles which both draw on exotic quite a bit. Hair is uniquely styled, with dreadlocks and afros coexisting with braiding and beading. Some hats might be worn, a beret fits in here (berets are also classic). (5) [u]Feminine[/u] - Girly girl clothes and hair are the hallmark of the feminine style. Everything is soft and yielding. Fabrics are natural and tend to not be too expensive. Details abound, from lace collars to beading on gowns to an overabundance of fasteners (buttons, hooks, etc.). Jewelry is often light in color and round, think of strings of pearls (pearls can also be classic) but also of small gold watches with round faces and most non-drop earring styles. Patterns are polka dots, light-colored paisleys, toile, gingham, ditsy (ditsy is tiny floral which from a distance looks like scattered dots) and floral. Hair tends to be curly, and is often long, either loose or in barrettes, ribbons or headbands. A portrait hat might be worn. The image is nonthreatening and feminine, and is more or less foolproof if a woman is looking to attract a mate (not a one-night-stand, but a long-term boyfriend or husband). It looks wifely. Rent "You've Got Mail" and check out Meg Ryan's outfits. From her sweater sets to her small, tasteful earrings to her modest skirts and sensible shoes, she is feminine all the way. (6) [u]Sporty[/u] - Sporty could also be called comfortable, it's not just for athletes. Fabrics are natural or high-tech, like lycra. Patterns are athletic stripe but really nothing else; this clothing is stripped-down and tends to be devoid of fussy detailing. Tee shirts, Bermuda shorts, khakis (they are also classic) and jeans are all sporty. Sneakers and sweats are also sporty; so are polo shirts and most skorts and, of course, standard tennis dresses. Billie Jean King is sporty; Ellen DeGeneres often is, too, and so is Serena Williams (although she mixes it with feminine and exotic). The image is comfort but that may also be interpreted as sloppiness and laziness. Hair is functional, either short (Dorothy Hamill) or pulled back (Mary Pierce). Jewelry is minimal, if present at all (tiny earrings, not much else). A baseball cap or cowboy hat might be worn.


What does it all mean? Well, notice I didn't really get into colors. Pink can go into any of these categories, although we tend to associate it with feminine. But hot pink sneakers are sporty. A light pink cape is dramatic. A pink sari is exotic. A plain pink suit or blouse is classic. A clingy pink blouse or a pink miniskirt is alluring.

I am a mix of sporty (mostly, easily over half the time), classic (suits and classic khakis for work) and feminine (mainly with my long curly hair and a few details, such as my wedding ring has floral etching). I also happen to embody the three most common styles in the US these days. Dramatic, exotic and alluring are less common. Dramatic and exotic because the clothes can be expensive or difficult to find, and alluring because it can result in a woman being hit on a lot, and not every woman wants that all the time. Go to a public place some time, one which does not skew people into one style or another (e. g. take a long bus ride or sit on a public bench) and do some people-watching, and some mental categorizing. You'll find that sporty crops up a good percentage of the time, as does classic. Feminine is a more distant third and then the other three bring up the rear. Do your people-watching at a High School and alluring will crop up more among the students, along with sporty and classic. Watch at an amusement park or sporting event and sporty rules, then classic, and everything else brings up the rear. Watch on a bus or train full of commuters and classic is in the spotlight, followed by sporty and feminine more or less neck and neck, then exotic and dramatic together, with alluring a very distant sixth.

But my mother is mainly feminine, with classic and a little bit of sporty thrown in. So you can see why we could not go clothes shopping together when I was a kid (add in the fact that she has winter coloring and I have spring coloring, and we agreed on nearly nothing. I shopped for myself by the time I hit age 13).

I think that might be the case with you and sozlet, plus the image thing. sozlet is trying on a feminine image, but since you've said she enjoys the spotlight she's probably got dramatic in her as well. She may also have some measure of sporty (it's hard to not be at least a little sporty in the US because we have a very casual culture when it comes to fashion), but not as much as you do. You are more sporty and classic (from the photos I've seen), along with feminine, so far as I can recall. So you two may very well shake out as

sozobe ........................... sozlet
sporty ........................... feminine
classic ........................... dramatic
feminine ........................... sporty

You can see there is the potential for differences of opinion.

sozlet also doesn't have a fully developed sense of style, so she may be confusing pink with feminine. But feminine doesn't have to be pink any more than pink has to be feminine. Feminine can also come through with detailing. She may be refusing to wear leggings but it may just be because they might not have enough details to suit her. She might like leggings with lace cuffs or floral prints.

She may be trying on this feminine style because she is hanging around with the boys. Or, adults may be giving her positive reinforcement that she values more, e. g. she may prefer being called pretty to being called brave or smart. I can see where Disney films could play a role, because a lot of Disney flicks value femininity very highly. But has she seen Beauty and the Beast? Belle is brainy and feminine. Does sozlet realize that she can be both?
Next time you go shopping for clothing together, perhaps you can look for styles that are practical (warm for cool weather, etc.) but that have feminine detailing or patterning. Another possibility is to sew on some detailing to an otherwise non-feminine article of clothing, such as a lace detail or a fancier button. That might give sozlet what she wants without dressing her head to foot in pink, and if she thinks about her clothes, and learns how to sew and add her own detailwork (and about how much less it costs than to buy the detailing premade), I think those are good lessons to learn.

About the categories above - I've found that if I go into a new situation and people are not reacting to me the way I want them to, the easiest thing is to reassess my style and go back the following day dressed more in a style that presents the image that I want to project. If I'm not taken seriously in business, I go straight to classic. If I am treated too much like one of the guys, I head for feminine. If I am overlooked as dull and not unique, I add something dramatic or exotic (usually with how I do my hair). If someone behaves as if I am too delicate to do something, I answer by adding more sporty elements to my look. And, by the way, it works.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 09:31 am
Interesting stuff, Jes.

Yep, she definitely realizes she can be brainy and beautiful too.

Btw this has all been there with a lot of consistency from as long as she could express any kind of preference -- the only new thing is skirts and only skirts, and makeup since the photo shoot last year. (Should've made that connection earlier.)

Meanwhile, the Will part of the equation has borne some fruit. Since the "spell" deal, she hasn't been commenting on commercials, so I brought it up when there was one on. Something about, "ya think Will would like that?" She said yeah... I said "what do you think of it?" She said, a little bashfully, something like, "I kind of like it." I said, "That's fine, ya know -- those are for Will, or you, or [naming lots of other friends of both genders.]

So yesterday was her first day back at preschool since the discussion, and when she was telling me about her day she said, "And me and Will played Power Rangers together!! I was a girl Power Ranger!"

What I got out of this is that she's really wanted to know whether it was OK to do the same things Will does and my messages have been "no". :-? That what Will does is what Will does and not something she'd be interested in. ("Nice of you to think of him.") I'm NOT in fact a fan of violent games, but I'm less a fan of imposing limitations according to gender lines.

Meanwhile something else we've been doing a lot of lately is wrestling -- just standard grappling, not like whapping chairs over backs or jumps or anything. ;-) She likes that, and is strong!! It's fun for me too, is "boyish", and gives me a way to monitor how much violence she thinks is OK. (She's so far been really good about, even when she's really putting effort into it and snarling and stuff, also being careful.)

What do you think about the cheerleading thing, Jes?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 08:46 pm
That's really cool about the girl power ranger, soz. I just have one thing to say about the skirt-love. I think they just happen to be in this year. They're everywhere and the styles seem to be sporty (loose, short, natural fabrics, cute with t-shirts). My daughter has gotten way more skirts this year than ever before, and I even bought myself a few. It could just be that that's the current style, and the sozlet is hip.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 08:55 pm
True, true, could just be that.

I'm making myself one, too. :-)
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jespah
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 07:49 am
Hmm the cheerleading is good in the sense that it's athletic. After all, if she is interested in doing something that requires physical activity, that's all to the good. But it is also, as you know, a complete sop to feminine and dramatic characteristics. After all, regular gymnastics doesn't involve parades, soccer (except if trophies are awarded) doesn't involve a lot of opportunity for individual recognition.

Perhaps that is what she wants - the spotlight. Hmm.

Does she like ballet? If so, it's interesting that cheerleading would be chosen over ballet, which is uber-feminine but also caters to a dramatic characteristic. That could be a function of just not putting them together and comparing them, or of just impulsively thinking about cheerleading because it was right in front of her, or a preference for a loud, very vocal activity rather than one that is rather quiet and can be pretty dainty (not that ballerinas don't have physical chops - they do - but they also tend to be pretty tiny and the costumes really overemphasize that). Or, and not to be alarming about it, she could want to be the encourager (enabler, if you want to use a clinical term) rather than the actual doer.

Cheerleading is certainly an athletic pursuit, but it's a team sport that does not require so much talent as it does precision and working together. These are good qualities to have and I'm not dismissing them, but it's also very much a quicky spotlight, let's draw your attention to someone else, kind of activity. Whereas the person who plays, say, baseball, actual hits or fields or pitches the ball, the cheerleader contorts and flips his or her body as a means of drawing attention to the person hitting, fielding or pitching the ball.

Dunno if those distinctions are understood yet, but except for cheerleading competitions, cheerleaders' sole raison d'etre is to be there to push the crowd to, well, cheer, for someone else.

So it's conflicting/conflicted. Is it a desire for the spotlight, or is it a desire for a quicky spotlight or to be part of a group in the spotlight because being up there by herself is too much to handle? Does she realize that it's a lot of work? Perhaps it's just a preference for the costumes and pageantry of it all. When I was a kid, I played Miss America, you know, the walk, the wave, that sort of thing, but I never thought about actually getting a talent together or how much traveling and dieting it would take. If it's just the look that she likes, that's easy to handle - a panel skirt, a pair of boots and a sweater can be put together.

One idea - since she likes being the center of attention - she might enjoy acting. I don't imagine that actual acting classes are offered for someone of her age, but sometimes singing and dancing (tap, etc.) are. My cousins did that when they were little and they enjoyed it a lot. It's costumes and performing, and some athleticism, but it's also any kind of dance, so it doesn't have to be ultra-feminine. I don't know if the idea is practical, but there's probably a local dance school around your area that you could check out. Oh, and there's makeup, but only when they're on stage. That might not be a bad lesson to learn, e. g. that a lot of makeup is applied because you're playing a role, not because you're somehow hideous or incomplete without it.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 08:25 am
Well, that might be reading a bit much into it.

She'll be starting dance classes next fall and is really looking forward to it. Cheerleading is just what's available and cheap this summer.

She definitely loves the spotlight, no doubt. The parade is a major selling point here. Probably my main concern in fact is that, as her first time really in the spotlight, (parade, on stage), she'll kind of imprint -- cheerleading = spotlight (and she loves that spotlight.)

But I'm only medium concerned, since she's really looking forward to those dance classes and that will have recitals and such as well.

I think it's very likely that she'd enjoy acting when the opportunity arises. We'll see.
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jespah
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 10:01 am
Good - long as she has fun and doesn't feel it's the only outlet for having fun, why not?
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 12:40 pm
Would a highly verbal kid be content with Self-Expression through Cheerleading? I doubt it.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 10:45 am
:-)

Went to Old Navy yesterday and remembered something I'd wanted to add to FreeDuck's observation -- I've had a theory that the current trend towards shortish fullish floralish cottonish skirts for women is BECAUSE of those styles for girls. A few seasons ago Old Navy and Gap had those kinds of skirts for little girls/ babies and I distinctly remember thinking "I wish they made them in adult sizes!!" It was shortly thereafter that they started to. Right now Old Navy has virtually the same skirts in the adult, kid, and baby sections. (And I really like them! Didn't buy anything though. Trying to make some since they're simple and fun. Almost done with the first, will post a picture.)
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George
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 11:02 am
Just read through this thread, chuckling all the way.
As Maurice Chevalier said (sang, actually) "Thank heaven for little girls".
And a great big "thank heaven" that my own little girl is well past that
stage. She drove her Mom nuts!

She also went through all sorts of wardrobe-related phases and came out
of it quite level-headed and with her own sense of style.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 11:09 am
I specifically noted (and appreciated) her style in the pics you posted -- so that makes me feel more sanguine about it all, thanks.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 11:22 am
So this Will thing just keeps going. Yesterday, out of nowhere, she said, "Ya know, Will didn't know how to play with Power Rangers when he was a baby." I said oh really, and she went on, "Yeah, he's told me a lot about when he was a baby. Nobody knew if he was a boy or a girl until he was 2 years old."

(No idea if this is from her own head or based on an actual conversation.)

So this conversation went on to touch on several of the same themes we've been talking about -- how girls like princesses and boys like Power Rangers, and me reminding her that her old best friend, Jack, just loved Cinderella, and her saying "Ooooohhhhh!", and me saying that if she likes Power Rangers, that's fine, anyone can like whatever they want, boys or girls. She digested this for a while, went on to something else.

Just now I dropped her off at preschool and she went right for Will. He was doing some art and she told him how much she liked it. He didn't react much. Then she was standing across the table from him, so I could see him but could only see the back of her head. I saw her say something presumably complimentary from her body language, and then his eyes widened and he went off somewhere else.

The teacher was trying to keep from laughing and came over and asked me if I'd seen what was said. Then she explained that sozlet had asked Will if he'd like to get married -- that was the reaction from him I saw.

Ha!

I think she meant just to play, but it was pretty funny.

Will see what she has to say about it all when I pick her up later.
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