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Progressive Latino wins first round elections for LA mayor

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 07:50 am
ebrown_p wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
OldEurope, do the Germans get to vote for French policy and administration? Do the British get a say in Spanish politics? Do the Italians get to have a say in Greek politics? After all they are all Europeans, right?


Kind of off topic McGentrix,

Americans get to vote for American policy and administration, (and Agelenos get to vote for Los Angelos policy and administration).

But let's talk about this term "American" (and I use this in the "of or pertaining to the United States" sense).

Americans are white, black, Asian, Latino, and several other. Nearly half of us don't support Bush. Many of us support stronger gun control, and a fair number of us (Americans that is) support the rights of "illegal" immigrants to protect their rights in a union.

Your use of the term "American" to mean uptight, conservative, narrow-minded, anti-immigrant yahoo is offensive and wrong.

This is a thread about the election of Villaraigosa.

Villaraigosa is an American. Villaraigosa was elected by Americans to represent the interests of Americans.

So what's your problem?


Are you talking to me when you say "Your use of the term "American" to mean uptight, conservative, narrow-minded, anti-immigrant yahoo is offensive and wrong."?
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 07:53 am
Of course not.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:02 am
Hmmm ... so an American-born, American citizen gets elected mayor of LA thanks also to the support of exactly half of the resident whites and 48% of blacks - but if we are to believe cjhsa, this constitutes a dangerous sign of illegal immigrants taking over your city or state? How's that work, exactly?

McG's point I dont quite get either - when did Old Europe ever suggest that citizens of foreign states should have the right to vote in America?
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:08 am
as an aside, here's an interesting factoid about antonio that ran on this morning's local news;

antonio villaraigosa's birth name is antonio villa.

when he and his wife (named raigosa) married, they joined the 2 names together to produce "villaraigosa".

that's kinda john & yoko-ish, innit? Very Happy
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:30 am
old europe wrote:
cjhsa wrote:
Yeah, real american citizens. Your issue with that is???


America is not just the United States, even if UnitedStatians often see it that way. Everyone living in the Americas is a real American, unless you wish to refer to real Americans as the Americans that have been living in Northern, Central and South America before they were "discovered". Which I seriously doubt, because by that definition you would probably not be a real American.


I am referring back to this post Nimh.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:32 am
McG, and your point is?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:37 am
McGentrix wrote:
old europe wrote:
America is not just the United States, even if UnitedStatians often see it that way. Everyone living in the Americas is a real American, unless you wish to refer to real Americans as the Americans that have been living in Northern, Central and South America before they were "discovered". Which I seriously doubt, because by that definition you would probably not be a real American.


I am referring back to this post Nimh.

Right. So,

nimh wrote:
when did Old Europe ever suggest that citizens of foreign states should have the right to vote in America?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:55 am
How do you translate "America is not just the United States, even if UnitedStatians often see it that way. Everyone living in the Americas is a real American,"?

Perhaps something is getting lost in the translation.

Hey Blatham, are you an American?
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 11:02 am
McGentrix wrote:
UnitedStatians


UnitedStatians??? holy crap...

is that anything like a EuropeanUnionian ?

now try saying that 3 times rapidly.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 11:02 am
This is a bunch of crap. The thread has been edited.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 11:04 am
?

I didnt edit ... what's edited?
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 11:05 am
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
UnitedStatians


UnitedStatians??? holy crap...

is that anything like a EuropeanUnionian ?

now try saying that 3 times rapidly.



Nah.... dtom, I wrote that, in response to cjhsa's "real Americans".

Nevertheless, my answer would be the same, whether somebody would refer to "real Americans", "real Germans", whatsoever.

I find the terminology somehow insulting. But maybe that's just me...?
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 11:07 am
cjhsa wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
Of course CJ. Anyone who disagrees with you is retarded. Just don't call us UnAmerican.


No, anyone who thinks undocumented ILLEGAL ALIENS should be allowed to UNIONIZE and VOTE on issues that affect real americans is retarded. And that I would never back away from.



That was the post I was referring to.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 11:21 am
McGentrix wrote:
Perhaps something is getting lost in the translation.

OK, fair enough. Here's my take.

Cjhsa posted:

Quote:
No, anyone who thinks undocumented ILLEGAL ALIENS should be allowed to UNIONIZE and VOTE on issues that affect real americans is retarded.


I answered:

nimh wrote:
Vote?


And Oldeurope answered:

old europe wrote:
real americans?


Now I took that to mean we challenged two separate parts of Cjhsa's statement.

-- I was (elliptically) asking who of those participating or talked about in this thread had ever suggested illegal aliens should be allowed to vote (noone, as far as I know).

-- Old Europe (I assume) was eliptically challenging cjhsa's definition of who's a real American or not. Judging on his follow-up, he considers "Everyone living in the Americas" to be "a real American". None of which, way I saw it, necessarily had anything to do with the question about who should get to vote. I saw his point as being purely terminological, about cjhsa's use of "real American".

You know, what I find works well usually is that if I go, how in heaven's name can he claim anything that outrageous (like: everyone in North- and South-America should get to vote in the US elections), to go back and see if he might not have meant something different that would make a lot more sense. And most all the time that actually then turns out to be the case!

Of course, that probably doesnt work as well if you kind of beforehand already expect all of those guys on the other side to be outrageous anyway. But then you can always ask to clarify.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 11:50 am
By saying everyone who lives in the America's is American implies what though? OE knew what CJHSA meant, didn't he? OE knows that when people say American, they mean a citizen of the USA. I do not know any other peoples that call themselves American any more than any German or Italian calls themselves European and has a say in any other European country.

You are right though, "how in heaven's name can he claim anything that outrageous (like: everyone in North- and South-America should get to vote in the US elections)" would have been a better response.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 12:02 pm
McGentrix wrote:
OE knows that when people say American, they mean a citizen of the USA.


That is absolutely what many people mean, but it's definitely not 100% the case.

I know that citizenship is NOT what I'm asking about when I ask if someone is American. I'm asking about country of residence (as the U.S. border crossing staff do - "country of residence?" is usually the first question).

If someone (most often from outside North America) asks me if I'm American, I generally respond by telling them that I live in North America, but not in the United States. Maybe that's a language caution thing?
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 12:10 pm
You do not know any other peoples that call themselves American? A pity, McG. In South America, people are often enough referring to themselves as "Americans". I found this quite confusing, I have to admit. I was never really sure what somebody expected me to answer when he said, "So what do you think about America?"
I might add that, when they were saying 'America', they usually meant South America.

I have no problem with that, though. Why should I? What I take issue with is the term "real Americans". Because it implies that everyone else is - what? - an 'unreal American'? A lower form of an American? I take issue with the derogatory connotation of that term.

And I'm implying nada by saying that everyone who lives in the Americas is a "real American". Or by saying that (almost) nobody is a "real American".
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 12:51 pm
old europe wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
UnitedStatians


UnitedStatians??? holy crap...

is that anything like a EuropeanUnionian ?

now try saying that 3 times rapidly.



Nah.... dtom, I wrote that, in response to cjhsa's "real Americans".

Nevertheless, my answer would be the same, whether somebody would refer to "real Americans", "real Germans", whatsoever.

I find the terminology somehow insulting. But maybe that's just me...?


no worries, oe. i understood where you were coming from. it just made me laugh a little ( which is always a good thing) and when i tried to say "EuropeanUnionian", i couldn't quite get it out without falling all over it. which made me laugh even more. it wound up sounding like tape going backwards. Laughing

as to "real americans", i don't care for that phrase much either. never have. it's just about always used in a way that is hostile. such as "liberals and moderates ain't real americans". which is of course, not true.

for myself, if i'm trying to make the distinction, i prefer to use the term, "native born american". it has no ethnic or other designation of heritage that i can think of other than, uhh, american. at least in the context that "american" is generally excepted to mean.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 01:51 pm
hmmmm, "EuropeanUnionian"..... I like that! Very Happy

On a side note, I found it quite amusing that almost no American I ever met outside the US said he was 'from the US' or 'American'. People would rather say they are from this or that state.

re the term "native born american", I completely agree with you.
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 03:25 pm
old europe wrote:
In South America, people are often enough referring to themselves as "Americans". I found this quite confusing, I have to admit. I was never really sure what somebody expected me to answer when he said, "So what do you think about America?"
I might add that, when they were saying 'America', they usually meant South America.


then maybe you'll appreciate this;

this kid from capetown came into register at the college where my wife works. he was white and had long blond hair. people totally weirded out when he checked the box for "african" on the enrollment form.

they even told him he couldn't do it "because in the us, african means a black person".

my wife told him not to worry about it and took the application as was, but some of the others were appalled.

go figure...
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