The leaking southern border.

Nimh wrote

Quote:

I dont quite see the parallel. What does a Green Card-less immigrant "steal" of yours, the moment he crosses the border?

He is committing a criminal act. Let me put it another way. If a stranger sneaks into your home and stays because he has no where else to live would that be acceptable. And while there he eats your food and uses your possessions even sleeps in your bed. In addition he uses your medical insurance, has you pay for his children to go to school and lowers your wage scale by working for whatever he is offered.

Note. I am addressing undocumented aliens. Not legal immigrants.

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JustWonders wrote:

And where did everyone else, save Thomas and fbaezer, blame those poor folks for trying????????

Oh, I was probably just going on how they were described, without further ado and exclusively, as thieves, criminals, who unlike our ancestors (upright folks who just followed the laws), sneak into our country under the cover of night, flooding across the border, flooding our country, embodying the danger of the next 9/11, the next national tragedy ...

Yeah, I think that was all that was said about them. I didnt see them described in any other ways than in those words by anyone but Thomas and fbaezer. So if there was a sense of you know, not actually blaming them or empathising with them or anything, I was missing it (both meanings of the word).

Au, I think I already stated my position.

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Maybe one has to live in a border state with literally thousands of illegals crossing daily to fully understand. I don't, but I've crossed the mountains into San Diego and seen the BP jeeps parked and waiting.

It's not only the good, honest, decent Mexicans crossing. It's criminals and gang members of Mara Salvatruchas (who, by the way, promise to meet the Minutemen in Arizona with as much violence as they can muster).

The problem I have with the Mexican government publishing a pamphlet endorsing and even encouraging illegal crossings is that it's way too dangerous. I cannot imagine a much more horrible death than dying of thirst or being suffocated in the back of a hot truck. I cannot imagine what they are thinking by doing this.

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I live in a border state.

It's difficult to become the minority in your own state, but that's where I will be in just a few years. I don't really have a problem with it; it's not as if the place has gone to hell. But our hospitals and schools are realllllly strained because of it, and we have a pretty big problem with crime. Not to mention the problem of the inevitable sweatshops that shoot up to take advantage of all the cheap labor.

Not to MENTION the problem of capital flight; many immigrants send CASH back home to their families in South and Middle America; and who can blame them? The stuff is like gold when it comes to where you can spend it. But it literally removes billions of dollars a year from our economy, which isn't a good thing at all.

We're going to have to close the borders. I think it can be done humanely. But it must be done eventually.

Cycloptichorn

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Cyclops - whites in Texas became a minority (49%) last year.

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Yeah, but we're still the biggest group overall; Caucasians only are a minority when compared to every other race in Texas combined.

Not for long though; changing face of the nation and all that...

Cycloptichorn

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JustWonders wrote:

Cyclops - whites in Texas became a minority (49%) last year.

Any idea, when the became the majority before? :wink:

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Good call WH!

I wonder if you could make 'ethnic maps' that move over time, to show the progression of our ethnic groups over the globe. A flash presentation of that would be interesting.

Cycloptichorn

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au1929 wrote:

from article

Quote:
"We will be there to make sure they're not abusing anybody's rights," the ACLU's Ray Ybarra said.

Who is committing the criminal act?The people policing the border or those illegaly entering the US.

That was going to be my question? Why is the ACLU so against the US?

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I think it's safe to say if any of the Minutemen's rights get abused, the ACLU will look the other way.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Not to MENTION the problem of capital flight; many immigrants send CASH back home to their families in South and Middle America; and who can blame them? The stuff is like gold when it comes to where you can spend it. But it literally removes billions of dollars a year from our economy, which isn't a good thing at all.

The leader of the right-wing liberal VVD here a year or two ago (during some election campaign or other, in any case) made a big issue about exactly this point. "Integrating", he lectured, "means spending your money where you live", implying that the money immigrants were sending back to their family in Ghana or Turkey constituted evidence of their unwillingness to properly integrate in our country.

This, he posited, posed a conflict of loyalty, as well as a cost post for us Dutch - after all, transferring much of the wages they were troublesomely garnering in their work in factories, as cleaners or in construction (first-generation immigrants dont usually get much higher than that), they were funnelling valuable finances out of our national economy!

No word as of yet on Mr. Zalm, leader of the most fiercely pro-market party of the country, reconsidering his position on Dutch investors putting their money in "emerging markets" stocks, or on Dutch businesses reinvesting billions in assets, earned on the Dutch consumption market, in new Asian or Latin-American investments.

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Quote:

Oh, I was probably just going on how they were described, without further ado and exclusively, as thieves, criminals, who unlike our ancestors (upright folks who just followed the laws), sneak into our country under the cover of night, flooding across the border, flooding our country, embodying the danger of the next 9/11, the next national tragedy ...

I never said I blamed them for what they are trying to do, as you stated, there is lots of reasons for them trying. It is up to us, the US to stop it, and that is the stand I am taking. As for sneaking in under the cover of night, I invite you to take up position along the US-Mexican border any night after sundown, and just watch. I have and its not pretty. Bad for us and dangerous for them.
I live in a border state that is GREATLY affected by illegal immigration. It is causing havoc in our schools and health care system. Not to mention the fact that they are taking advantage of govt. programs that they have not even put a dime into, that take away from those that have and are also in need.
There is also a huge driver's license issue right now, that is dividing the state even more than it already is.
I have nothing against legal immigration. Hell, even our governor is a naturalized citizen.
We have enough people in this country that don't play by the rules....no sense in adding to it if we don't have to.

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I agree with many here that I don't blame anyone for their actions specifically; it's natural to want a better life for your family, and for many families the amount of money you can make in America, low as it is, will keep them afloat for a long time.

But that doesn't discount the effects of illegal immigration, which is the problem.

Cycloptichorn

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nimh wrote:

tommrr wrote:
So just about every time I hear some talking head spouting off about something that doesn't support their particular agenda, they often use the line, "We are a nation of laws". Well, last time I checked, there is a law against just wandering into this country. Are we a nation of laws, or are we a nation of "laws that are convenient to my particular agenda?".

Although in my ideal world, people would not need permits to live where they want to live, I accept that realistically, they're necessary - especially if we want to preserve any of the rights and achievements that the citizens of the country have arrived at through the years, especially since FDR's time. Basically the dilemma Thomas sketched. In a world of free migration, there could be no, say, Social Security or a minimum wage or anything like that - it would be unaffordable. So two of my ideals clash, and thus I accept that some form of immigration controls are necessary. And that means in turn that illegal immigrants do need to be turned back, yes.

Where I differed with you and the others here (barring Thomas and fbaezer) is that I dont blame those poor folks for trying. I would too, probably, in their shoes. People will go to where they think life is better - it's human nature. They want the best for themselves and their children, and thus they come to take the jobs the US employers offer to illegal workers. I dont think they're bad people for that.

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You mean the southern border is leaking? If we can build the Panama Canal, I'm sure a dam at the border should be a cinch.

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I see I posted a blank. I was trying to post an agreement in general with fbaezer and nimh from three pages back, and to mumble that I am listening.

I have a slight bias in that as an anglo californian, I learned early on that the land was possessed, for a time, by others before us, and inhabited by native americans before that.

I understand laws, but am not quite so upbraided that someone might not agree to them. I do understand trying to arrive in the US.. I'd say that some of my best friends' families.... but that is a phrase long stultified as a pure spit of condescension, so I won't.
The life of the US, all the good and all the bad in a potpie, are from immigration by whatever means.

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c.i. - How many glasses of wine did you have with dinner? Smile

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JW, As a matter of fact, my wife only heated up yesterday's Marie Calendar turkey left-over dinner with orange juice. Wine? Sounds like a winner. I'll have to try that the next time. Got about 50 bottles of wine in the house.

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What time's the party?

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CI, I said something about a giant wall a bit ago...

so, JustWonders, do you have no room for a glass of wine, at least metaphorically?

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The leaking southern border.

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