Evolution? How?

Cicerone, I agree. If we don't question things now of days, then we will all be led to a horrific end.

I don't think it's evil, I was joking about that. I actually enjoy science as well, tossing science out the window is stupid, but so is tossing out the bible. I am looking for them to coincide someday...maybe today (answers in genesis).

There is no factual or logical evidence of the existence of any god(s). Only the bible supports the bible, although we can say that some things in the bible can be rationalized as true, but so are many science fiction stories. I remember a time when as a child we poo-pooed the idea of a radio wristwatch worn by Dick Tracy. Doesn't mean Dick Tracy was ever real.

Wow, that was a long time ago, did you know any dinosaurs?

.....J/K Old people are the coolest

The only problem is that answers in genesis isn't science. It is psuedo science at best. Mostly it is psychobabble. Lots of jargon with little facts when examined.

Little facts that you want to see.

Do we begin again with the age of earth from science or the bible? Is the word of god infallible?

Genesis
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw [with his "eyes"] the light, that it was good:

Are you saying God doesn't understand science? Isn't science the study of God?

So it is more logical to think the big bang came from nothing?

CI. Your post of the proclaimed "paradox", does not exist. I hink the author was using "paradox" in its sense of being self contradictory , hence untrue.
Had we posted that 10 years ago wed have no real answers about the "sudden apperance of life" and therefore a quick generation of bauplans and materialization out of "dust".Thats 10 years ago. NC Hughes , in 2000 said
"Its hard to escape a suspicion that what we see in the Cambrian (meaning the so-called "Cambrian Explosion" is mainly tinkering with a developmental systems that were firmly established by the time these Cambrian beasts showed up"
Remember, WE artificially call the base of the Cambrian as that sequence where we see first fossilized complex life. By complex life we mean just a few multicellular free livers that were good enough to get fossilezed. Even at the base of the Caqmbrian, we didnt have hard part fossils like shells and carapaces , so we had a relatively limited bunch of animals with tri lateral, bilateral and (the biggy) pentameral symmetry. BUT NO SHELLS. SHelled animals like most of the classes, came much later by mid Cambrian.
So from the Cambrian Explosion we see a bunch of worms, and it took another 50 to 70 million years to develop hard parts then came arthropods in the Ordovician and the first annelida show us evidence that molluscans were developing.

About 25 years ago, we learned about some preCAmbrian fossils in Australia that were part of a single (extinct ) phyllum called Vendobionta. These were like little gas bags that were bilaterally symmetrical, trilaerally symmetrical, and pentamerally symmetrical. That was in Ediacara Hills of Australia, then, within the next 15 or so years , we began finding these Ediacaran fauna all over. In Russia, in Namibia, Newfoundland, Ireland etc. There are some , what Id call pretty complex formed "gas bags" such as Tribrachidium, which according to Adolf Seilacher, evidenced a developmet class with several body plans that were continued on .
More importantly, he noted that there were "ichnofossils" these are the trace fossils , not a cast of the organism themselves , but "tracks" of the animal.
Just like we have learned a lot about dinosaurs from analyzing their tradcks (how they walked, ran, were they fast, slow etc)
Well, in the Edicaran type fossils we see some fairly complex drag and crawl ichnofossils that show that something more complex than a worm was moving about.
This began to cast doubt that the Cambrian Explosion was indeed very loud and was only an artifact of poor fossil record( Remember, geologically, this was a time of Precambrian Grenville and Vendian orogenies so the older sediments have been "smooshed " by susbsequent orogenies since the preCambrian
Molecular Biology in the last 10 years is the real kicker. Phylogeny by molecular means is being accumulated by comparitive genomic studies of related phylla.F Ayalla and Rhezetsky have shown , by comparing genomic structures of phylla that diverged , and these divergences, if you follow the "accumulated" mutational sequences,have probably occured in the deep PreCambrian. (Chordates like Pikia were computed tohave diverged from deutorosomes along with echinoderms at about 1 billion years ago, or right in the ending of the Grenville.

Science doesnt have answers by any means, but neither is it a paradox to the extent that the author wants you to believe. Im sorry to say this but the more doctrinally bound authors try to use a fact that always works for them. They spin just enough science to impress someone whose expertise IS NOT in the evolutionary areas. So, by painting this as a "paradox" , we are impressed with this as an argument bound in logic and proof. Its not.

The word "survival" says much... What is survival but the spirit of creation in action... Science disproves itself...

farmerman, Didn't understand half of your post, but thank you for taking the time to try to explain to this student about the Cambrian Explosion and it's relevance to evolution. I guess "paradox" is expertly used to confuse those of us with just a spankling of knowledge in the sciences. I'll never be able to comprehend your level of desertation, but keep it coming. I'm sure others are also gaining the right kind of knowledge from your posts.

FM could you write a bit about the differences between plant and animal cells and speculate on how you think they evolved from existing organisms? What could have made these two distinct but similar cells? When did these cells diverge? What kind of common ancestor would you think these came from and what was it like? Does this life form or similar forms still exist or have they become extinct? If they have become extinct then are there fossil records of these pre human/plant life forms?

I was just thinking about something...

This discussion seems to constantly hit on an illusive point... Why do things "try" to survive? Even a fly flys away when you swat at it... Plants grow toward the sun and bacteria mutates to protect itself... All of life struggles to hang onto life unless it loses "spirit" and resigns the fight and it's will to live... Some call this virtue courage and some stamina. It is in all creatures, the desire for eternal life... Where does this desire come from, chemicals, magnetism, reason and learned behavior or is it design?

God said let there be light... Before then, there was no form and darkness was on the face of the deep. Is light this form that all things have within? Do we inherit our survival instincts from the character and nature of light... Is light the form that appears out of empty space and evolves into all we sense around us? The Bible tells the "whole" story not just half...

When the eyes are far apart they are usually predators and when they are close together they are usually prey...

ci. I guess I can sound like an abstract sometime. If I can restate in a brief form.
The Cambrian "Explosion" was not really a true "sudden appearance". There were more animals already existing with modern features and modern symmetryfrom preCambrian times than were available t the Cambrian bas.Its just that the Cambrian base had big enough specimens to fossilize better, or the sediments were finer grained organic muds, or there was enough oxygen to sustain explosive populations

What happened at the base of the Cambrian was ( onlybecause we define it so-and is therefore quite circular) the beginning of life that fossilizes in an apparent "complex body plan" or bauplane. We now have seen many fossils from earlier than the Cambrian that we didnt know about till 35 years ago and more and more in recent times.If nothing else makes sense remember weve always defined the CAmbrian as the basal formation where "modern life fossils first appear.(not hard shelled ones but ones similar to the gas bag animals of the preCambrian). Now, just because weve defined the Cambrian as the base Gould said that there appeared to be a sudden appearance of fossils , so he called it the "explosion" Even he apologized for the term and clearly wanted everyone to call it a hypothesis because he didnt know the width and depth of the precedent fossil record

Weve known that many animals have bigger genomes than man. Many sea Worms, for example , have a genome many times bigger than man. Most of it is intron material and as Gould called it "the Bookkeeping of evolution" A long genome accumulations of gazillions of mutations, all neutral and in the noncoding part of the genome. These long genome animals are compared by looking at similar sections of living species and applying a "time scale" to accumulated mutations.Thus we can estimate back when these animals diverged from each other.
However, I did download "paradox" paper, I think Im gonna need it since it sounds like stuff in the "teach the Controversy" ring.

Rex- algae and protists were probably around about 2.7 Billion years ago.We know that Yeasts have a very big genome, as do bacteria. Prokaryotes were probably around about 3.8 Billion . That data isnt firm because the prokaryotes were only seen from second hand means by looking at Carbon Isotopes in various metasedimentary formations from Greenland and Newfoundland

farmerman, Thank you. I really appeciate your taking the time to explain it in simpler terms. I owe you some drinks or somet'n.

Im sorry my typing is sort of eroding. My left hand is getting more and more paralyzed as time goes by, so I sort of hit a key and it may even be the right one. Also, I guess i just do "stream of consciousness" more than coherent postings. I like the immediacy like we're talking over the back fence. (HA HA). If I lived next door to you, youd probably shoot me for being a bore and Id be trying to convince you to take a fossil hunt to the Gobi, thsn Id come along so Itd be tax deductible.

Next time you head out for the Gobi, lemme tag along . . . course, i'll be lookin' at the historical significance of the Kansu Corridor, but we can both have our fun . . .