Evolution? How?

CodeBorg wrote:

"Does this happen today? Just random combinations creating new life forms?"

It does happen today. But the simple molecules that are randomly created
have very little chance competing against the more advanced molecules that surround them.

The R-proteins have established a significant stronghold and advantage
against any other new mutations.

Who are you trying to fool, here? Name one-- just one organism that has ever shown an advancement in its genetic material. One-- heck, you can even go throughout history if you want, forget the "does it happen today". Name one organism that has ever shown an advancement of genetic material.

Brandon9000 wrote:

Speaking of myths, do you have any evidence for any of this being true?

He's not talking in terms of scientific fact, genius. He's talking about the relationship of the church and evolution-- how evolution is not compatible with the Christian belief. He's assuming that Adam existed and such because that's what is a cornerstone of the Christian belief-- he was showing that evolution is not compatible with this, and thus Christianity + Evolution = a big load of crap wrapped in a pretty little bow.

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Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:

...
Brandon9000 wrote:
Speaking of myths, do you have any evidence for any of this being true?

He's not talking in terms of scientific fact, genius. He's talking about the relationship of the church and evolution....

Since he's making assertions about how the Earth was created, which are either true or false, examining their likelihood is the appropriate province of evidence and logic.

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Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:

CodeBorg wrote:
"Does this happen today? Just random combinations creating new life forms?"

It does happen today. But the simple molecules that are randomly created
have very little chance competing against the more advanced molecules that surround them.

The R-proteins have established a significant stronghold and advantage
against any other new mutations.

Who are you trying to fool, here? Name one-- just one organism that has ever shown an advancement in its genetic material. One-- heck, you can even go throughout history if you want, forget the "does it happen today". Name one organism that has ever shown an advancement of genetic material.

Rex, I'm not sure I understand your question... Can you rephrase your idea?
What do you mean by "advancement of genetic material"?

I'm not sure if you're talking about the breeding of animals and plants,
the creation of new species, natural transfer of genomes between species,
environmental dominance, or evolution itself.

Advancement?

My comments were about R-proteins. One of the arguments used to support the evolution of life from one specific organism is that every organism uses right-handed molecules. If life had spontaneously begun in a few places, one would expect to see a mix of both Right-handed and Left-handed molecules. And now that life has spread and evolved into highly competitive forms, any newly initiated primitive forms would be at a significant disadvantage. Is this theory disagreeable?

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I liked this bit

Quote:

The religion that is evolution cannot be combined with the religion that is Christianity

That clued me in. The rest of it just added to my hilarity.

Some light relief at last.

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Quote:

Since he's making assertions about how the Earth was created, which are either true or false, examining their likelihood is the appropriate province of evidence and logic.

How can one accurately make the right assumptions based on other assumptions? How anyone say for sure how old the Earth is, without making an assumption either way (thousands of years old/billions)?

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

Quote:
Since he's making assertions about how the Earth was created, which are either true or false, examining their likelihood is the appropriate province of evidence and logic.

How can one accurately make the right assumptions based on other assumptions? How anyone say for sure how old the Earth is, without making an assumption either way (thousands of years old/billions)?

Evidence and logic, not simply declaration or ancient writings.

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Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:

CodeBorg wrote:
"Does this happen today? Just random combinations creating new life forms?"

It does happen today. But the simple molecules that are randomly created
have very little chance competing against the more advanced molecules that surround them.

The R-proteins have established a significant stronghold and advantage
against any other new mutations.

Who are you trying to fool, here? Name one-- just one organism that has ever shown an advancement in its genetic material. One-- heck, you can even go throughout history if you want, forget the "does it happen today". Name one organism that has ever shown an advancement of genetic material.

Brandon9000 wrote:
Speaking of myths, do you have any evidence for any of this being true?

He's not talking in terms of scientific fact, genius. He's talking about the relationship of the church and evolution-- how evolution is not compatible with the Christian belief. He's assuming that Adam existed and such because that's what is a cornerstone of the Christian belief-- he was showing that evolution is not compatible with this, and thus Christianity + Evolution = a big load of crap wrapped in a pretty little bow.

I will name one organisn that has shown advancement in it's genetic material... Humans.

Ardipithicus ramidus 5 to 4 million years ago
Australopithecus anamensis 4.2 to 3.9 million years ago
Australopithecus afarensis 4 to 2.7 million years ago
Australopithecus africanus 3 to 2 million years ago
Australopithecus robustus 2.2 to 1.6 million years ago
Homo habilis 2.2 to 1.6 million years ago
Homo erectus 2.0 to 0.4 million years ago
Homo sapiens archaic 400 to 200 thousand years ago
Homo sapiens neandertalensis 200 to 30 thousand years ago
Homo sapiens sapiens 200 thousand years ago to present

We see a gradient of humans species dating back in time. The earlier species resembled apes and humans. Humans certainly have very similar striking characteristics to modern primates... There are many examples of sub human forms that certainly link us to nature... The earth has not preserved a perfect record of every change but has selectively decided where and when fossils will be preserved. We see gaps because of this but that does not disprove evolution. Changes happened gradually... but the earth has only revealed part of the story. Genetics back up evolution also... The out of Africa theory is verified through paleontology and genetics...

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I would like to step back from biology to nature itself more...

Biology comes from nature...

Nature is made of shapes and forms physics and forces that pull and repel... Nature has numbers architecture and can sometimes conform to logical processes of progression. Examples equal angels, parallel lines, circles, squares, spheres... There is infinity of design in nature...

When one takes a design from a piece of paper and makes a physical model of it (like a molecule of water) then it no longer assumes a theoretical, but a real-time visual analysis. This is nature, a real-time visual analysis of infinite diversity and shapes...

There are peculiarities in nature... What causes a thunderstorm to turn into a tornado? No one knows this yet...

...It is the finger of some "mischievous" God stirring up the wind from above? I think it is nature in motion... the Fibonacci numbers in wind current and pi...

This is evolution a whirlwind of life, a storm starting small like a "replicating cell" and turning into a tornado... when the winds died down evolution was finished... but the storm still rages on... Smile

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

Quote:
Since he's making assertions about how the Earth was created, which are either true or false, examining their likelihood is the appropriate province of evidence and logic.

How can one accurately make the right assumptions based on other assumptions? How anyone say for sure how old the Earth is, without making an assumption either way (thousands of years old/billions)?

There are many ways to measure the age of the earth... Plate tectonics, radio carbon, magnetic influxes in the soil, climate change, geophysics, anthropology, biology, paleontology, chemistry, genetics, lunar, solar studies... All of these sciences and many not mentioned seem to all concur with the radio carbon dating.

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http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/050207_extremophiles.html

http://www.livescience.com/othernews/041105_volcanic_peptides.html

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/050510_young_suns.html

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/planet_formation_020709-1.html

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Re=Red, Most of human science has measured the age of earth; all seem to verify each other. Plate tectonics is an interesting area of studying planet earth, because most of the land mass was once connected, and it has been proven by common fauna and flora and the increasing plates under the oceans. I don't think we're ever going to convince people who are creationists.

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Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:

Who are you trying to fool, here? Name one-- just one organism that has ever shown an advancement in its genetic material. One-- heck, you can even go throughout history if you want, forget the "does it happen today". Name one organism that has ever shown an advancement of genetic material.

Staphylococcus aureus has now, in hospitals, thanks to unhygenic conditions and people not finishing their antibiotics are becoming resistant strains through advancement of genetic material i.e. the development of a gene that makes it resistance to antibiotics.

I think this, however, can give far more examples of advancement of genetic material than I can:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

Yes, it talks about a current debate on what constitutes a species, however, you asked specifically for examples of organisms that showed "an advancement of genetic material" i.e. organisms that gained new phenotypes (biological characteristics) that made them different from the wild type population (the so-called "normal ones").

Quote:

He's not talking in terms of scientific fact, genius. He's talking about the relationship of the church and evolution-- how evolution is not compatible with the Christian belief. He's assuming that Adam existed and such because that's what is a cornerstone of the Christian belief-- he was showing that evolution is not compatible with this, and thus Christianity + Evolution = a big load of crap wrapped in a pretty little bow.

Prove that Christianity and evolution is not compatible. I know plenty of Christians and they believe in evolution.

Note that the Theory of Evolution in its most pure form doesn't even mention the origin of life, only the way new species arise from new species. Hence, in its purest form, the Theory of Evolution doesn't even dispute the existence of Adam.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Re=Red, Most of human science has measured the age of earth; all seem to verify each other. Plate tectonics is an interesting area of studying planet earth, because most of the land mass was once connected, and it has been proven by common fauna and flora and the increasing plates under the oceans. I don't think we're ever going to convince people who are creationists.

I am a creationist but I also believe in evolution... In the beginning God... I believe God (of the old and new testaments) made the big bang and God is in creation and outside of creation. But from there God made a self perpetuating world that would need very little outside influence... I see God scientifically and not only religiously. There have been problems (spiritually) in creation and God has stepped in and tilted the scales toward biological self realization and survival. I put much value on consciousness and I think think we are part of God's conscious reality. Yet, we have our own reality to perceive and try to evolve in also... It is when we try and understand reality from God's perspective (the spirit) that we become truly enlightened.

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Quote:

The world was created in seven days. Period. Seven 24 hour (give-or-take) days. If one interprets "day" as "1000s of years," then there would be many inconsistancies. The word "day" is used many more times in Genesis, each clearly being used in a literal sense. Furthermore, Adam was created on the 6th day, lived through the 7th day, and lived to be 930 years old. If "day" means "1000s of years," Adam would have been a lot older than 930!

You can believe that the earth is a tiny poppy seed that fell from a galactic bagel, just as long as you dont teach your crap as science you may carry on in your delusion.PERIOD

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00 Agent Kid wrote:

Eorl wrote:
If I could add anything helpful it would be: that it is possible to have a strong faith in God while accepting and understanding evolution.

No, you can't. Theistic evolution is a myth. It is simply atheistic evolution + God. The religion that is evolution cannot be combined with the religion that is Christianity.

There was no death before Adam. There was no death until man fell and sin entered the world. Beforehand, there was no death: All animals were vegetarians and Adam and Eve ate from the trees that gave fruit. Adam was also intelligent. He could think, write, and speak. There is no way that he could have lived as a primitive organism of some kind.

The world was created in seven days. Period. Seven 24 hour (give-or-take) days. If one interprets "day" as "1000s of years," then there would be many inconsistancies. The word "day" is used many more times in Genesis, each clearly being used in a literal sense. Furthermore, Adam was created on the 6th day, lived through the 7th day, and lived to be 930 years old. If "day" means "1000s of years," Adam would have been a lot older than 930!

There was physical death before Adam but not spiritual death... God said that "On the very day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die..." Adam and Eve lived on for many years after the incident... So did God lie? No, They died spiritually...

You are using the Bible in light of what "religion" has turned it into and not what a simple reading and understanding of the words there mean...

In Genesis there was only one thing "created" in the "seven day" period... the was the image of God (spirit) in Adam and Eve... All else was created in the "first" heaven and earth (of Gen 1:1) and took place over possibly billions of years... This is why the Bible says, God formed.... God made.... God created... But the only real usage of the word created in the seven day period (Beginning in Gen. 1:3) is the unique spirit God placed upon humans...

Between the first and second verse of Genesis is most probably billions of years... Then in the "third" verse is the start of the seven day period. Let there be light... why did God not create light? Because it had already been created in the first heaven and earth... so God just spoke it "back" into being...

What were the heavens and earth that God "created" in the "first" verse of the Bible before everything became "darkness" and formless (many evolving forms) void? This darkness was the fall of Lucifer in the first heaven and earth (dinosaurs)... this was why God had to speak light back into being and not create it...

So Eden was the "second" heaven and earth and this might explain why it only required 7 days... Because humans had already evolved... but they were still running around naked in the woods... thus God "created" spirit (which enhanced life) upon them but only on a condition... also Eve came from Adams rib because, she evolved beside him...

If Eden was the "first" heaven and earth why is Lucifer a snake in the garden and not God's most beautiful angel? Anyone with free logic would realize there was a heaven and earth "before" Eden and this was where Lucifer fell and ended up as the lowliest form (evolution) of all creatures. God in seven days spoke light (usurped by Lucifer) "back" into being and prepared the earth for a new second age... Eden.

The Bible does not in Hebrew say God in seven days created all of the plant and human kingdom... It says he "formed them from the dust of the ground"... (it doesn't say "when" he formed them) The biblical definition of creation is... poof! and there it is... But God used existing materials to make humans... this is why God "formed", "made" and "created" humans and not only "created"...

Ultimately God created everything but not all in Eden... God only "created" one thing in Eden... Spirit in humans... This leaves the door open for evolution to reveal it's wondrous truth about the human form... dust of the ground.

If you look at Genesis without religious dogma clouding your mind you will see that it is teaching both creation and evolution... Genesis says... "Let the earth bring forth"... that is not creation but evolution... Evolution AND creation... God merged two "ages" in one story and this has brought much confusion. It is the holy spirit that guides us to knowledge of good...

The Bible teaches of both a physical living world (pre Eden) that God created and is within also but likewise a spiritual world (Eden) that God created and is in also... Ultimately even the physical world comes from spirit deep within atoms. There is God as Spirit and, the creation of God that is spirit... Notice the caps... The word Adam according to Josephus means "red"... Because Adam came from the red earth... also red blood of virgin procreation...

In the beginning God created the heavens (Spirit) and the earth (physical)... So why did God created spirit "again" in Eden? Because every time spirit is placed in something it is "created" each time because it is a "new" spiritual creature that has never been before in the same shape or humankind...

Thx FM for binging the last post to my attention... I remember reading it but got delayed and sidetracked on posting my reply.

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Has anyone found where it says in the bible that the seventh day ended?

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RexRed wrote:

I am a creationist but I also believe in evolution... In the beginning God... I believe God (of the old and new testaments) made the big bang and God is in creation and outside of creation. But from there God made a self perpetuating world that would need very little outside influence.

Then you are not a "Creationist" in the common sense. You are more of a Deist.

Creationists believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible, right down to the seven days and Adam and Eve.

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neologist wrote:

Has anyone found where it says in the bible that the seventh day ended?

Not sure where you are going with this but the number eight (and the color green) in the Bible signifies "new" beginnings. One reason is because eight it is the first day of the week...

I believe God rested from creation in Eden... Though God created things billions of years before Eden and watched them develop... Then Adam and Eve proceeded to mess things up... God is "seated" in heaven so he is not that busy, he rarely ever stands... but God still creates... every time a new believer receives spirit and is "born again" a new creation occurs. Smile

I might also mention that had Adam and Eve eaten from the tree of life "after" they had sinned they would have remained forever in sin... This was why God took the tree of life from their grasp... It doesn't mean there was not death in the world but there was a heaven. The heavens were created in the first verse of Gen...

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Simply to illustrate that the earth wasn't created in 7 literal days.

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rosborne979 wrote:

RexRed wrote:
I am a creationist but I also believe in evolution... In the beginning God... I believe God (of the old and new testaments) made the big bang and God is in creation and outside of creation. But from there God made a self perpetuating world that would need very little outside influence.

Then you are not a "Creationist" in the common sense. You are more of a Deist.

Creationists believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible, right down to the seven days and Adam and Eve.

I believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible but most people do not take it literally they fabricate their own meaning (thus religion). I believe religion is philosophy but the Bible is God's wisdom... I believe Eden consisted of seven literal days but there was only spirit created at this time... the heavens and the earth life... light were created billions of years earlier. I believe in the God of Jesus Christ (with all my heart) and Paul the apostle. I also believe in the Hebrew God but I do not take the Moses laws that seriously in light of new testament freedom from the law. We "were" judged with Christ...

Peace with God... Smile

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Evolution? How?

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