RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 10:18 am
So I will say that patiodog has won the discussion of black holes because that article on NASA was rather convincing... But as I said earlier my science levels are not up there that high to really understand what exactly they are talking about with these black holes. Farmerman is right I do look at things linearly and I like that because I do not proceed further till I have established a footing...

The NASA stuff is very interesting though and does give me a better picture of the death and rebirth of suns and does also open a window to possibly discovering what gravity really is... It pushes the theories to the brink of proving them... again thanks patiodog...

But as for astrology and the stars I am still out on that one because I think that all life has energy and I am not sure how this energy is connected... I am still amazed by how far light travels unobstructed to reach the earth...

I believe it was both patiodog and farmerman that said that there was so much space that the black holes do not seem to block enough of the light... That after some thought made sense... See, I am a reasonable person... I change when I think I may be wrong and I have no problems with that. I am not an obsessively proud person and my ego can suffer much and still bounce back...

I heard it once said "You can walk on my feet till you can walk on your own but don't walk on my face."...

Peace with God all...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 10:28 am
Setanta wrote...

And that is the critical divide be science and religious speculation. When a scientist speculates, she then proceeds to test.


Comment:

First you assume all scientists are atheists and then you also assume that God can't be tested...

I am perplexed at the way some scientifically minded people base their entire supposition on such weak premises...
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 10:43 am
Where is the assumption that all scientists are atheists?




And to what, back a ways, were you saying "Not true..."?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 11:01 am
RexRed wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
RexRed wrote:
...I might remind you AGAIN this is a RELIGION and spirituality thread...


Correct, but judging from your posts, you seem to think that this is the IRRATIONALITY and WILD SPECULATION thread.

You have to be able to form a coherent set of thoughts if you ever hope to be able to discuss real issues with anyone, whether it be science or religion. Nobody appreciates pure babble, and frankly, you're babbling. And understanding science depends on following the scientific method, that's just the way it works.


That is matter of opinion... Just because I do not believe in black holes on a certain day, I am babbling and you are being unfair and judgemental... How about you laying out a coherent set of thoughts and prove me wrong? I believe rocks are alive and we evolved from plants but no one gives me any solid "science" that I am wrong?


Rex, it's not up to me, or anyone else, to disprove all your wild assertions. The burden of proof is on you. We've said this before, and you've ignored it. Not only that but several people here have gone out of their way to explain things to you and you've blatenlty confused the explanations with more and more wild unsubstantiated speculation.

Not only are you complaining because we don't take the time to disprove your guesses, but when we try to explain something, you don't make a reasonable effort to stay on subject and understand what is being said. That's either crazy or rude. And I for one and giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you're not trying to be rude.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 11:07 am
Setanta wrote:
RexRed wrote:
There are things about God I "KNOW"... I don't ever doubt them and I will take this KNOWLEDGE to my grave with me... Science can never ever cause this knowledge to falter, waver or weaken... But near the things that I know, are things that I wonder about... They can be subject to change...


The irony here is simply amazing. You claim to know things about God, although such things that you "know" are not demonstrable. And that is the critical divide be science and religious speculation. When a scientist speculates, she then proceeds to test. If the results of her tests are replicable, which is to say that others will obtain the same results with the same methods, and if her results are predictive, then she has the basis for a theory, for which expanded investigation is now possible, and upon which other speculations leading to other theories and discoveries can be based.

"Science" is not an entity bent on making you waver or falter in your religious superstitions. Science is indifferent to what you may or may not believe (such as the existence of a deity, something you believe rather than know, despite your protestations to the contrary.)

The problem with the things about which you wonder, the problem with your speculations, is that they are not tested, likely are not subject to testing--but worse they are, as Rosborne points out, babble. People here pointed out to you that light can be altered in its straight line course by the proximity of a sufficiently large mass. Your response was some nonsense out of nowhere about light not being able to pass through matter (never looked out of window, huh?). So you have offered other, equally ill-considered speculations, and made outright assertions from authority, although possessing no scientific authority, which plainly contradict the observations of reputable scientists. You offer not evidence, other than badly expressed and written descriptions of your musings.

Quote:
Like the "law" of gravity.. there are things that scientists "know"... They have made a "law" out of a force they do not even know what it is... Scientists do not even know what gravity is... If they claim to know it has only been a result of the last few years... So for 200-300 years since Newton we have believed in a law pertaining to a force in nature that science cannot even define properly yet...

I do not fault science for their "faith" in gravity and I do not expect science to fault me for mine...


This is the direct product of your insistence on equating your superstition and its appurtenances with science and its methods. In another thread a joker showed up to post a scientific topic, once again the theory of evolution, and put it in the Religion and Spirituality forum. That is totally inappropriate, and it is revealing about the attitude of the author. First, that they likely fear they couldn't take the heat if they offered their mumbo jumbo in a Science Forum thread; second, that they equate their decision to believe that they "know" a deity exists, and that they "know" things about that deity with scientific theory. But theories don't deal with absolute truth, they deal with probability. As a theory ages, it looses the conviction of those who are familiar with it if it fails to predict, if tests of the theory are not replicable, if the theory contradicts other theories for which the tests are predictable and the terms predictive. As a theory ages, if its predictive ability improves, then it gains a greater measure of probability.

Which brings us to another flaw in the intellectual make-up of those who are willing to sacrifice honest investigation on the altar of their god. Such people are absolutists. Doubt is not commensurate with faithful devotion. To question any parts of a theology is to call into question all of the theology, and theology does not admit of revision, as does theory.

I agree with Rosborne, you've largely come here and babbled. That you are intelligent, and that you read i do not doubt. That you are willfully blind to evidence before you because it might contradict your theology i also do not doubt. You are bent upon belittling science because of the implicit threat to notions which entail burning bushes and walking on water.


You have twisted my words and rosborne has lots of smarts but I do not totally whither in his presence nor do I In farmerman's or anyone else in this thread. I did not grow up in a vacuum? I paid attention in school and have some technical college too... I have always loved science but my knowledge is vast and admittedly has some holes as does science too. I have never stopped learning the disciplines in my life. I just also have spirituality.. You and Rosborne's problem is not my knowledge of science but that you have to jump over into a religious post... not with the intention of teaching science but of bashing a few Christians... I could go over into the science posts and claim you are all babbling but I prefer to have some logic before doing so and not just pure ego... It is not science you are plugging but left wing hate... well I can take it and I can stick up for my own self... I will not hide behind God either but it appears to me the devil has you already...
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 11:14 am
RexRed,

I am fairly religious. This thread discusses science in the context of religion. I personally believe issues of faith should be kept separate from issues of science.
0 Replies
 
recklesssarcastic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 11:24 am
I don't know if anyone here is still talking about evolution, but this is a thread about it so here we go.

The evolutionary theory is entirely believable because, they have proof. Do you remember lucy, the primitive ancestor of ourselves, who was just so different from an ape, who is proven to be our ancestor. Now, that human with it's jutting brow and stooped walk evolved into us. And that happened before any of the events in the bible took place.

Also, we have proof of dinosaurs, correct? and not once in the bible does it mention that they have to hide from the carnivoruous dinosaurs. Not once does it mention the huge forests of ferns and swamps covering much of the world.

There, in two paragraphs, is an argument that, in my oppinion, prooves the entire thing.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 11:30 am
RexRed wrote:
You have twisted my words and rosborne has lots of smarts but I do not totally whither in his presence nor do I In farmerman's or anyone else in this thread.


The accusation that someone is twisting your words is one of those last ditch resorts--i've quoted you and taken what you've written word for word.

Quote:
I did not grow up in a vacuum?


I don't understand the question mark--i don't know if you did nor didn't, and frankly don't care.

Quote:
I paid attention in school and have some technical college too...


Considering your performance in this thread in the area of paying attention, that is an unconvincing statement.

Quote:
I have always loved science but my knowledge is vast and admittedly has some holes as does science too.


I see no evidence in this thread that your knowledge is vast. As to science having "holes"--i've already pointed out that science is not and has never been touted as a repository of truth, that science deals with probability rather than truth. Once again, you are attempting to discuss science in a thread in Religion & Spirituality, and this is revealing. The religious fanatic lumps science and religion together as sources of the truth, and then whines about inaccuracies and gaps in scientific theory. But science is not about absolute truth, although that may be the goal. Science is about probability, and demonstrated by testing which can be replicated, and producing reliable predictions. For many of the religious, the dogma of a text, such as the Bible, is not to be taken literally, or in its entirety. Such people are comfortable with the divide between science and religion. But the fanatically religious insist upon the absolute, literal acceptance of dogma, and science offends them insofar as it contradicts that dogma.

Quote:
I have never stopped learning the disciplines in my life. I just also have spirituality.. You and Rosborne's problem is not my knowledge of science but that you have to jump over into a religious post...


You have started a thread entitled "Evolution? How?" which begs a scientific question, yet you have placed it in Spirituality & Religion. The theory of evolution does not entail religious questions. I have a very great problem indeed with what you purport to be your knowledge of science, especially in view of your most recent crackpot statements--i suspect the same applies to Rosborne. Once again, when you put a thread like this in the Religion forum, you're asking for trouble, and deserve the responses you get. If you just wanted to chat with other religious fanatics about why science is unreliable and why the theory of evolution is "untrue," you ought to have gone to a religious web site where the choir preach to one another on a daily basis.


Quote:
. . . not with the intention of teaching science but of bashing a few Christians...


Your demonstrated unwillingness to accept what others have told you here makes the contention that you had come here to learn ludicrous. As for bashing christians, you limit my scope unpardonably. I will mock to scorn any religious fanatic who attempts to shove their nonsense down the collective throat of the membership here, not simply the wacko christians.

Quote:
I could go over into the science posts and claim you are all babbling . . .


However, absent an ability to demonstrate that the members in a thread in the Science forum were babbling, you would be ignored.

Quote:
. . . but I prefer to have some logic before doing so and not just pure ego...


That's rich--given your numerous statements from authority about the nature of the universe, and particularly your recent statement that your knowledge is vast, you've got a lot of gaul to attempt to tax others with "pure ego."

Quote:
It is not science you are plugging but left wing hate...


You came her to plug something--your religious nonsense. I have no brief to "plug" science. You also assume that i indulge in hate--but you flatter yourself, i have no emotional reaction to you. You also assume a political opinion on my part, one which is completely unauthorized, as i have not made a single political remark in this thread.

Quote:
well I can take it and I can stick up for my own self... I will not hide behind God either but it appears to me the devil has you already...


Ah, here we go, the good old fire and brimstone. Judge not, RR, lest ye be judged . . .
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 11:31 am
rosborne979 wrote:
RexRed wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
RexRed wrote:
...I might remind you AGAIN this is a RELIGION and spirituality thread...


Correct, but judging from your posts, you seem to think that this is the IRRATIONALITY and WILD SPECULATION thread.

You have to be able to form a coherent set of thoughts if you ever hope to be able to discuss real issues with anyone, whether it be science or religion. Nobody appreciates pure babble, and frankly, you're babbling. And understanding science depends on following the scientific method, that's just the way it works.


That is matter of opinion... Just because I do not believe in black holes on a certain day, I am babbling and you are being unfair and judgemental... How about you laying out a coherent set of thoughts and prove me wrong? I believe rocks are alive and we evolved from plants but no one gives me any solid "science" that I am wrong?


Rex, it's not up to me, or anyone else, to disprove all your wild assertions. The burden of proof is on you. We've said this before, and you've ignored it. Not only that but several people here have gone out of their way to explain things to you and you've blatantly confused the explanations with more and more wild unsubstantiated speculation.

Not only are you complaining because we don't take the time to disprove your guesses, but when we try to explain something, you don't make a reasonable effort to stay on subject and understand what is being said. That's either crazy or rude. And I for one and giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you're not trying to be rude.


Not true I don't think you have even read my posts in this thread...

I agree with people when they make sense but I have three times silenced this post..

Once when everyone was convinced in this post life evolved on this earth through evolution... I brought up a popular theory about that maybe it did not originate on this earth but a comet brought it here... The discussion turns to silence and shifts... This is not my theory but that of leading scientists... I am only quoting you science and I am "babbling"?... Well now you are seeing what I am seeing coming out of scientists... Well everyone suddenly changes their perspectives to suit the mood.. Then I said, life could have come from a volcano under the sea (another popular science "theory" and I am babbling?) and everyone changes their perspectives again and silence... Nothing is definitive... Then, I said it didn't come from an under sea volcano but from plants... Finally everyone had a problem with that theory.. Well that is my favorite one of all... But that is my will to believe the one I choose to... When they said we came from apes the christian world had a problem with that And I choose to take it a bit farther and say we came from plants scientists don't like that one... Well I will accept a common ancestor too to me they are all babbling... God is the real issue at hand... the perspectives change again... and does any have a real answer NO!!!!! All babbling... but everyone thinks they do... some left wing scientist want to dictate what we think... I am not about to give them an inch. And in the end... blame the Christian, for muddying up the science?... see how you are? This is why I have God... He doesn't do me like this...
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 11:39 am
Post number one was:
Quote:
What makes Evolution so believable. Just because a bunch of scientists tell you it is. It is a theory, an idea, a guess. Why?


One of your latest contentions is:
Quote:
God is the real issue at hand...


I'm outta here.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 11:54 am
recklesssarcastic wrote:
I don't know if anyone here is still talking about evolution, but this is a thread about it so here we go.

The evolutionary theory is entirely believable because, they have proof. Do you remember lucy, the primitive ancestor of ourselves, who was just so different from an ape, who is proven to be our ancestor. Now, that human with it's jutting brow and stooped walk evolved into us. And that happened before any of the events in the bible took place.

Also, we have proof of dinosaurs, correct? and not once in the bible does it mention that they have to hide from the carnivoruous dinosaurs. Not once does it mention the huge forests of ferns and swamps covering much of the world.

There, in two paragraphs, is an argument that, in my oppinion, prooves the entire thing.


I am a studied Christian I totally believe in evolution and I believe the bible teaches it...This is what I came in here to discuss... I believe science has made a good case to prove it.

The issue has turned possibly for good reason to not so much have we evolved, to the speck of God that I choose to keep in my eye... Proof of evolution does not disprove the Bible in any means... Science has not proven God does not exist... Till they do I will remain a Christian...

Psalms 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
0 Replies
 
recklesssarcastic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 11:57 am
well then I'm a fool. So the bible doesn't disprove evolution...The catholic church....alotta churchs are trying pretty dang hard to disprove it...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 12:18 pm
Setanta wrote:
Oh, i read it, and the contention that you "stuck to the issues" is an absurdity. There is an "issue" with scientific theory as truth (which no theory ever purports to be) only on the part of the superstitious whose cherished illusions are challenged by a disinterested theory, the tenets of which are in direct contravention of the fairy tales at the heart of all theology.

All you've done in this thread is pump out your babble. It is your inability to adequately judge the value of supported, theoretical speculation, and whatever pops into your head that leads you to make such ludicrous assertions about the nature of the universe--such as that light cannot pass through matter (and by the way, no one here had said anything remotely resembling such a statement). Just because you can imagine something does not make that something a plausible basis for making the kinds of statements from authority you have been making.

Your obvious object is to demonstrate that science is not in possession of the truth. No scientist ever claims that it is. It's only the religiously superstitious who are frantic to demonstrate as much, because they desparately cling to absolutes, and project that onto others.

I finally chipped in here because i'm so sick of seeing the religious try to foist their crackpot ideas off on others, while attempting to slander science and scientists.


There you go, let it all out... when you're re done I hope you feel better and we can get back to the issues at hand...

This is how much I know about science... I did not have to go and look this up... light passes through glass because the molecules are so far apart that it can slip around them... So, I am not unlearned in trivial knowledge. But a "black hole" is very dense.. What is the scientific explanation on how light passes through this?

I myself thought these "theories" were up in the air (to coin a pun) and open to speculation... by all, but I guess "scientists" (in your strict left wing definition of the word) are the only ones that can, "speculate"... Christians need to sit back and be silent... Smile

I may babble at times but I am not so skewed that I cannot reason other, possibly (but rarely hehe) more fanciful, points of view than my own...

If I seem to have missed a valuable point that you have proposed than I certainly hope you can repeat yourself so I can benefit from your unique perspective.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 12:25 pm
recklesssarcastic wrote:
well then I'm a fool. So the bible doesn't disprove evolution...The catholic church....alotta churchs are trying pretty dang hard to disprove it...


Well these churches will probably fail on the point of disproving evolution and that is unfortunate and foolish... but in the big picture it is of little consequence, because their intentions are worthy... But, science will fail in disproving God and that will require a higher cost in humanity...
0 Replies
 
lovesong
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 12:38 pm
the problem with this whole thing is that youre measuring what's real or not real by different methods. you cant compare lengths in feet to lengths in metres if there is no common ground (a conversion rate). deciding whether God exists by using science or whether evolution has happened by using faith, you are never going to come to an answer.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 12:44 pm
I also know without looking anything up that light is "slowed" by glass and water. It is also refracted and reflected from glass... because not all light passes through... My only remark was at how clear space was for us to look through it and see things so pristine... That space is for the most part free of obstruction...

So I believe light is "alive" and rocks are alive (I know I have mentioned that wild remark before...) and somehow they have changed us over time... (this is an extension of the God belief in me)

Like the wind it blows softly upon jagged rocks and over time the subtle wind makes the rocks smooth...

The stars have shown down onto the earth for billions of years and over time have sent their unique living emissaries to the earth through this light and it has caused life to evolve from the molecular to the biological.

I don't care that my thoughts are "out there" just tell me where you think I am wrong... If you can't then it is not so "out there" as you think...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 01:06 pm
So in short my theory is... that light from stars caused life to evolve on the earth over billions of years... life traveled in or as this light to the earth... It took time to reach the earth and make their home here... So how far is that from astrology? Similar... but not identical.

"and God said, let there be light"... Smile

If I am right, star light is the seed of life and evolution... The earth's diversity are a mirror of the heavens diversity... This could only happen by a connection... The only connection I can see is light... So that may be the means of delivery of life if the earth itself did not create it...

Is this connection still affecting us today?(astrology)... Well there is still star light hitting the earth... this star light may be our "mother or father" (I know out there again) ... But, I do find life in light...

How is star light different from the light of our own sun? Well how is it different? Who knows? It may have been altered over light years of travel through space and time. The differences may not be detected by todays science. Science does not even know what light really is... but they take some good pictures of it...

So are we affected by the stars? Quite possibly more than we think...
I would not change the original mind that God gave me for your science text books... but I will take a glance at them. hehe Smile
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 01:24 pm
lovesong wrote:
the problem with this whole thing is that youre measuring what's real or not real by different methods. you cant compare lengths in feet to lengths in metres if there is no common ground (a conversion rate). deciding whether God exists by using science or whether evolution has happened by using faith, you are never going to come to an answer.


Welcome to Able2Know lovesong and great point! That is probably my fault because I have tried to mix things up by injecting parallelism... Why? To see what comes out... Smile
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 01:32 pm
Quote:
recklesssarcastic wrote:
well then I'm a fool. So the bible doesn't disprove evolution...The catholic church....alotta churchs are trying pretty dang hard to disprove it...


Apparently you know very little about the Catholic Church and its teachings
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 01:39 pm
farmerman wrote:
Quote:
recklesssarcastic wrote:
well then I'm a fool. So the bible doesn't disprove evolution...The catholic church....alotta churchs are trying pretty dang hard to disprove it...


Apparently you know very little about the Catholic Church and its teachings


I think you are right FM the catholic church endorses evolution...

It is the protestants that are giving evolution such criticism...
0 Replies
 
 

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