RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 01:10 am
Eorl wrote:
The apparent godlessness of the entire universe doesn't bother you at all?


I don't see the universe as Godless but full of God's earmarks...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 01:16 am
How will we ever find intelligence when we "dumb down" creation?
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 01:18 am
RexRed wrote:
Chumly wrote:
Heyah RexRed,

Do you agree 100% with everything real life says or are there some differences? If so what are the biggest ones?


RL deserves the right to his own space from my own superlative analysis. The gaping hole lies in the godlessness here of which RL is not necessarily a party...
So are you saying there may be two gods?
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 01:21 am
I see this discussion between me and you all as fifty/fifty...

Which seems preposterous that I can make you doubt science half of the time... Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 01:25 am
Chumly wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Chumly wrote:
Heyah RexRed,

Do you agree 100% with everything real life says or are there some differences? If so what are the biggest ones?


RL deserves the right to his own space from my own superlative analysis. The gaping hole lies in the godlessness here of which RL is not necessarily a party...
So are you saying there may be two gods?



There is a daemon who challenges us all... Jesus Christ is his nemesis...
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 01:28 am
RexRed wrote:
Eorl wrote:
The apparent godlessness of the entire universe doesn't bother you at all?


I don't see the universe as Godless but full of God's earmarks...


Please show them to the rest of us.

You are the one "dumbing down" the universe but supposing it to be nothing more than an instant of magic from some guy without any limits.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 01:32 am
Is the apple guilty of sin?
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 01:33 am
RexRed wrote:
Chumly wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Chumly wrote:
Heyah RexRed,

Do you agree 100% with everything real life says or are there some differences? If so what are the biggest ones?


RL deserves the right to his own space from my own superlative analysis. The gaping hole lies in the godlessness here of which RL is not necessarily a party...
So are you saying there may be two gods?



There is a daemon who challenges us all... Jesus Christ is his nemesis...
Daemon Knight rocks!
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 01:34 am
Eorl wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Eorl wrote:
The apparent godlessness of the entire universe doesn't bother you at all?


I don't see the universe as Godless but full of God's earmarks...


Please show them to the rest of us.

You are the one "dumbing down" the universe but supposing it to be nothing more than an instant of magic from some guy without any limits.


Or maybe something between the two extremes?
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 01:38 am
Sure, show me. Anything. Just one little "earmark".
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 01:39 am
Chumly wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Chumly wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Chumly wrote:
Heyah RexRed,

Do you agree 100% with everything real life says or are there some differences? If so what are the biggest ones?


RL deserves the right to his own space from my own superlative analysis. The gaping hole lies in the godlessness here of which RL is not necessarily a party...
So are you saying there may be two gods?



There is a daemon who challenges us all... Jesus Christ is his nemesis...
Daemon Knight rocks!


Have you ever considered if "lucifer" (The angel of light.) is "real"?
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 02:30 am
Why Extraordinary Claims Demand
Extraordinary Proof
Ed J. Gracely, Ph.D.
© 1998, PhACT
Skeptics are typically unwilling to accept paranormal claims?-such as claims of psychic powers, human energy fields involving energies unknown to science, detection methods involving unknown forces (like dowsing), and predicting the future with cards or dreams?-unless the evidence in support of those claims is of very high quality. "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof," we say. Paranormal proponents might question the appropriateness of this logic. They observe skeptics accepting some claims, such as those made by orthodox medical research, on the basis of average, reasonably good evidence, while demanding flawless, near-perfect research before paranormal claims would be accepted. Intuitively, it seems as though evidence which is "good enough" for one claim should be acceptable for other claims as well. This article discusses the issue and provides a statistical basis for skeptics' favorite line, while also pointing out its limitations.

Basic Logic
First, it is important to understand that the strength of a conclusion is a function both of the quality of the evidence provided in its support and the a priori probability of the claim being supported. Thus there can never be a single standard of "acceptable evidence" that will suffice to render every claim equally plausible. Suppose, for example, that a reasonably reliable source tells me (a) that President Clinton has vetoed legislation that places restrictions on trade with China and (b) that Newt Gingrich has switched to the Democratic party. Most people would be much more confident of the truth of the first report than of the second, even though the source is identical. The difference lies in the a priori plausibility of the claims.

A more precise formulation requires us to cast the a priori probability of a claim into the form of "odds" in its favor. A proposition with 90% probability of being true has 90 chances of being true for every 10 of being false. Thus the odds are 90 to 10, which reduces to 9 to 1. A proposition with 20% probability of being true has 20 chances of being true for 80 of being false. The odds (in its favor) are 20 to 80 or 0.25 to 1. It is more natural to translate the latter case into odds of 4 to 1 against the proposition, but the calculations require us to work with odds "in favor of" a proposition, even if they are fractional.

Pieces of evidence alter the odds in favor of a proposition by a multiplicative factor in proportion to the quality of the evidence. A good source of evidence might multiply the odds by 200. A fair one, perhaps, by 10. A negative result might reduce the odds 10-fold. So, let's say that my reliable source is good enough that his or her support for a proposition increases its odds 100 fold. This would increase the odds that the veto took place from, say, 50-50 (1-1 odds) to 100-1 in favor.

On the other hand, the probability that Newt would switch parties is very small, perhaps 1 in 10,000 (Stranger things have happened!) This is odds of about 0.0001 to 1 in favor. After my source makes that claim, the odds rise to 0.01 to 1 in favor. This is still around 100 to 1 against its truth.

So the evidence provided by my neighbor has had the same effect in each case, but the conclusion is different because of the different a priori probabilities.

Practical Considerations
The principle is clear, the difficulty lies in the application. How likely, for example, is it that homeopathy or therapeutic touch really work? Proponents argue that we need to open our minds to new possibilities and grant these systems a fairly high a priori probability (say, 50-50 odds). Then, even modest-quality evidence would make the claims quite probably true. Skeptics argue that these systems violate known laws of physics and their validity should therefore be considered remotely improbable.

An alternative I have heard suggested is to drop the extraordinary proof argument and instead to hold paranormal and alternative medicine claims strictly to the ordinary requirements of replicability and good research. This approach sounds sensible but it has a serious flaw. Skeptics are not willing to accept the plausibility of most paranormal claims unless the evidence is extremely strong. We risk being perceived (correctly) as disingenuous if we call for solid quality research, then revert to the extraordinary claims argument should it in fact appear.

In some areas of paranormal investigation, such as extrasensory perception (ESP), the research is already often better done than much orthodox scientific research, with controls and double-checks most scientists would regard as overkill. Skeptics mostly still feel that the intrinsic implausibility is so great that nothing short of airtight and well-repeated research would be sufficient to support ESP. Little or none of the existing research rises to that level, so we remain skeptical. (Some recent work has been of high quality, see Ray Hyman's article, "The Evidence for Psychic Functioning: Claims vs. Reality", in the March/April 1996 Skeptical Inquirer, pp 24-26.) Had skeptics said some 40 years ago that all we wanted was reasonable quality replicated research, we might now be having to eat our words.

The logic of the extraordinary claims argument is independent of the possibility of cheating by paranormal proponents. Many paranormal claims have a very low a priori probability. This means that potential biases and research flaws are more plausible as explanations for pro-paranormal results than is the truth of the claims. The argument would still be valid even if cheating, one possible explanation, was completely ruled out. In situations where fraud is especially likely, such as a single individual self-promoting as a psychic, we don't need the extraordinary claims argument to require tight controls against cheating. Ordinary diligence and common sense suffice to mandate exquisite and painstaking caution.

Conclusion
The skeptics' line, "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof," is justifiable on probabilistic grounds, but the difficulty of determining a priori probabilities is a serious drawback. This may prevent communication with non-skeptics unless they are willing to adopt our strict standards so as to achieve general acceptance. A strict but not "extraordinary" standard of ordinary good science and replicability is risky because most skeptics would not actually believe typical paranormal claims if evidence at that level were provided.
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/extraproof.html
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 02:31 am
Science knows enough to render itself obsolete...
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 02:50 am
Dr. RexRed is an Associate Professor of Vacuous Patter at the Loon's School of Autoimmune Mumbling in Philadelphia.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 02:50 am
So do we evolve from the paranormal where the supernatural is our sufficiency, to the scientific where we are relegated to being spoon fed healing? ...where we lose the faith component that enables us to change by the miraculous?? Are we limited only to the static?

Do we evolve merely to become slaves to science and the physical or are we masters of the spiritual?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 05:58 am
RexRed wrote:
So do we evolve from the paranormal where the supernatural is our sufficiency, to the scientific where we are relegated to being spoon fed healing? ...where we lose the faith component that enables us to change by the miraculous?? Are we limited only to the static?

Do we evolve merely to become slaves to science and the physical or are we masters of the spiritual?


They say truth is stranger than fiction, and from what I've seen I would have to agree. Science and reason, are life and growth. Faith and fantasy, merely pleasant dreams. I prefer to dream while I'm asleep and live while I'm awake, but everyone is free to do whatever they want, even to dream their lives away.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 09:32 am
That's exactly what they are doing; by claiming to live by the word of a two thousand year old book that has nothing to support its message. They are dreamers all! Hoping for that paradise after they die. Foolish.
0 Replies
 
jin kazama
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 11:41 am
Ya they want to waste their lives trying to please "god" so when they die they can be god's b*tch for eternity
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 12:03 pm
real life wrote:
DS,

You said,

Quote:
With enough conditioning, brainwashing, preaching and proselytizing, I am convinced the average mind can be convinced of anything...


Who convinced you of this?

Is this an idea that you came up with all on your own without anyone suggesting the idea to you?

How came you to hold your set of beliefs? No doubt discussions with other people and exposure to their ideas, whether through books, lectures, discussion, etc played a large part, no?

Certainly you will say, 'well I thought thru what I heard, and kept or modified what I thought reasonable and discarded what I did not consider reasonable'

Are you assuming that others do not do so simply because they do not agree with your conclusions?

How is your process for arriving at your belief any different from what you are criticizing?

(Hint: It's not.)

Bee Ess

You seem to be insinuating in your usual roundabout indirect (some might say slippery) way that all 'beliefs' are equally founded in reality, and that all people have the same intellectual tools with which to formulate said beliefs.
To that I simply say...
HAH!
If you believe that I got a bridge you might be interested in buying.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 02:56 pm
real life, in a bit of 3 card monty says
Quote:
I have no disagreement with this process and have said as much numerous times in this thread.

Nearly every region of the Earth shows evidence of having been undersea, which is consistent with what I've said.


No its not. You said that all sediments were underseas and were deposited as sediments on mountaintops. We had to pummel you to get you to admit that sea floor sediment was uplifted and, like a carpet that was manufactured in Raleigh, was pushed up hill and out of the water into the Smoky Highlands.
Sediments were all deposited withrepsect to the sea floor or lake floor, or basin or stream or lake, or glacial valley. What happened to these sediments later is a separate event. The rug was moved after it was lain.

You try to associate the acts as one event, dont be tryin to fool us now. We gonna hold ya ta task , for all your silly weaseling of facts .

Its the LAW of Original Horizontality, its nor even a theory.
0 Replies
 
 

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