Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2006 09:24 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
If the existence of man is due to evolution, then any human influence causing the survival or nonsurvival of another species is also part of evolution, and therefore perfectly natural, right?

Let humans be humans, and whatever effect they have on other species is what it is. If the other species can't cut it, then it's part of evolution that they disappear, right?


A hundred million years from now, whatever intelligent species is around on Earth may see the brief rise (and fall) of humans as merely another extinction event. Or possibly, machines may look back and see us as the biological epoch of their own evolution.

And in a billion years the latest intelligent species may see multiple biological extinction events marked by the rise of each intelligence. All things being perfectly natural.

Ultimately, we are indeed, just part of the natural process and nothing we do can change that. But while we're here, we can make choices. We've already altered the flow of life on this planet, the mere presence of every species can do no less. But only we can choose. And it's not only valid, but natural that we do so. Thus the tragedy Set mentioned is not one of nature, but rather, one of humanity.
Beautifully put! It also raises the question of free will versus the time horizon.
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2006 09:57 pm
I must agree with Timber: humans change the evolutionary calculus. If we are to think of ourselves as "superior" to all other forms of life by pointing to our cherished attributes of morality and ethics then we must accept the responsibility regarding our interactions with those so deemed "inferior".

Morals and ethics demand human involvement regarding environmental and species protection but it is our compassion that compels and even sweetens such pursuits. House hold pets and children are a good example of our humanity. We do not bring these enjoyments into our lives without accepting the responsibility of stewardship. The coin is two sided.

JM
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2006 10:01 pm
JamesMorrison wrote:
I must agree with Timber: humans change the evolutionary calculus. If we are to think of ourselves as "superior" to all other forms of life by pointing to our cherished attributes of morality and ethics then we must accept the responsibility regarding our interactions with those so deemed "inferior".

Morals and ethics demand human involvement regarding environmental and species protection but it is our compassion that compels and even sweetens such pursuits. House hold pets and children are a good example of our humanity. We do not bring these enjoyments into our lives without accepting the responsibility of stewardship. The coin is two sided.

JM


And which scientist is going to determine these"ethics " for us?
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2006 10:47 pm
What are ethics?

Well some would say they run often contrary to nature. Where nature is to reason by primal fear and hungers of food, shelter and sexual gratification where reason seems to hold loftier principles that can transcend these primal urges. What gives the the audacity to not follow nature? Do we have some exception to our primate cousins?

Yes,

It is a form of love.

We do not have one English word for this form of love so it can only be described in a series of words... (this indicates how lost we are from truth)

The Greeks had one word for this love and most of the philosophers implied that this love had not yet arrived.

We only see this love in Christ and beyond.

Peter could not display this love (denials), Judas, thomas, Even Jesus' own mother doubted her son's methods etc...

Yet these same people displayed a complete reversal of behavior after the events of the holy Gospels.

Why, and what is this love?

The Greeks called it "agape"...

Much like the name for God in Hebrew we do not seem to have a word for this love in English. Because this love is rather strange... It requires one to let others to take some advantage of you.

With all of the debts posted at the city gates this type of act was unheard of. Why? Because only God can forgive...

So this is why nature must be nature. Because it has no excuse to not be.

So without a "third" party this love cannot exist.

In order for me to forgive someone and keep my own dignity I would need someone else to to forgive the debt for me...

Think about that...

So without the ability to perceive of a merciful God there cannot be mercy. Without mercy there is bitterness and secret hatred. One may on the surface forgive but the bitterness has no place to go. So bitterness turns to rage and becomes like the wild animals. We regress to the point where we cannot see civility any longer.

It is God who carries our burdens and pays our debt and rewards us ten fold for our loyal service.

This is agape. That we can forgive because we perceive we are forgiven.

This frees the heart and allows the peace and presence of God to exist within the expanse of reason.

This is why we have ethics a living guide and standard. Because we have an advocate to pay for our baggage.

Because we as a species sense and can conceive of grace, mercy and forgiveness, we show this grace mercy and forgiveness to other species and the earth. We can only forgive to the extent that we believe we are forgiven.

It takes three to make agape...
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2006 11:03 pm
No scientist is needed to determine ethics or morality, nor is any religion. That which is to the overall good and benefit of humanity and the biosphere is moral, that which is moral and not in conflict with rights and responsibilities is ethical. With or without religion or science, some folks will be moral, some will be ethical, some folks may be one or the other but not both at one time and something else another time, and some may be neither. The fewer folks who are immoral and unethical the better for the species, and for the biosphere. The planet has been here nearly 4 Billion years, Homo Sapiens Sapiens has been on the planet for around a hundred thousand years - and in that short time has become the dominant, controlling, directing lifeform on the planet, dwelling on every continent, having set foot on the moon, dispatched probes to the planets and even into interstellar space. Humankind's curiosity, courage, and inventiveness, our refusal to quit looking ahead, our drive to explore the unknown, is what has brought us to this point, not our fears of things that go bump in the night.

What advance in the human condition has religion wrought? What advance in the human condition has science wrought? Humankind has come firther in the past 500 years than in the previous 95,000, and further in the past hundred years than in the preceeding 500 years. Science propells humankind into the future, despite religion's kicking, screaming, protesting, and yearning for the imagined comforts of a past that never really was.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2006 11:11 pm
I think that reality has to be legitimate. It is based upon laws and these laws are so absolute and they have been in place since the beginning thus having not been breached once.

If the laws that caused life on earth had one single flaw then the outcome would have been disastrous and not what it is today. That means an infinity of parameters were set in the beginning and not one single one has ever failed.

There are millions and millions of bytes that load up into the ram of your computer each time you turn it on and if even one single bit of a byte did not read right the computer would not start and run properly.

Once the computer is up and running then it has full functionality... God is the programmer...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2006 11:32 pm
I hope there are not too many popups.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml

http://atheistempire.com/reference/brain/main.html

http://www.2think.org/biology_belief.shtml

http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Health/health19.htm

http://www.calvin.edu/~lhaarsma/GodModuleInBrain1999.pdf
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2006 11:37 pm
Set, I couldnt read that URL on the "devolution of Finches" It was overlian by all kinds of ads and print. If you have the "e-mail friendly version, could you PM it to me?
John Weiners book "The Beak of the Finch" is a great piece of pop science reporting on the Work of Peter and Rosemary Grant whove been documenting the "microevolutionary pace" of finches on Daphne Major and Minor in the GAlapogos. Fortunately most of the islands are actually off limits by international treaty and the ones that are considered legacy sites need special permission slips. AS far as the "Creationist Geologist" Ive made my opinion known about most of these frauds. They work like theyre honest scientists and acquire advanced degrees. After they get their "Academic Tickets punched" they usually reveal that they were , all along, preparing for their "mission". So they use their credentials only to establish some credibility, then they go and deny most all that theyve learned. Anyway, a Creationist Geologist has as much credibility in morphological evolution in living species as he does in road construction engineering --ie NONE.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2006 11:40 pm
rex
Quote:
If the laws that caused life on earth had one single flaw then the outcome would have been disastrous and not what it is today. That means an infinity of parameters were set in the beginning and not one single one has ever failed.
And you deduce this how? Youve just shortcircuited all work on evolution and rendered it irrelevant.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2006 11:48 pm
farmerman wrote:
rex
Quote:
If the laws that caused life on earth had one single flaw then the outcome would have been disastrous and not what it is today. That means an infinity of parameters were set in the beginning and not one single one has ever failed.
And you deduce this how? Youve just shortcircuited all work on evolution and rendered it irrelevant.


Maybe so, could you explain?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2006 12:03 am
RexRed wrote:
I think that reality has to be legitimate.

Indeed, though rather redundant.
Quote:
It is based upon laws and these laws are so absolute and they have been in place since the beginning thus having not been breached once.

To the best of our knowledge, the laws we know appear to have held constant, however, that merely is to the best of our knowledge, and our knowledge by no means encompasses all laws. We've barely gotten a handle on non-Euclidian geometry, and quantum mechanics is absolutely full of puzzles, questions, and surprises, some of which appear to be inconvenient to, sometimes even contrary to, long accepted concepts of "established. laws". Thats the wonder - and the purpose - of science; see what works and find out why.

Quote:
If the laws that caused life on earth had one single flaw then the outcome would have been disastrous and not what it is today. That means an infinity of parameters were set in the beginning and not one single one has ever failed.

Poppycock - you only assume the alternative would be disaster; it might or might not have come out differently had things been different, but within our sphere of reference and experience we can draw only on what has come about. Perhaps things would somehow be better, perhaps somehow worse, perhaps different, perhaps the same, perhaps, perhaps, perhaps ad inifitum, ad nauseam. We don't know, because what we know is that derived from what we observe. Indeed, the parameters for that which we experience were set at the emegence of the singularity - the Big Bang - and the entirity of what and where and when we are is a natural consequence of that event. The math, physics, astronomy, geology, paleontology, archaeology, biology, and pristine, uncluttered, yet elegant logic permit no other forensically valid, academically sound, intellectually honest answer. All else is nought but blind, unfounded conjecture, and when wrapped in superstition, blind, unfounded conjecture becomes religion. Perhaps we are what and where and when we are precisely because of as yet undiscovered flaws in the laws we think we know, or at least as we currently understand those laws ... perhaps, if there are flaws, they're not in the laws, but in our understanding. But then, all that talk about possible flaws in laws is just blind, unfounded conjecture, though since it is unencumbered by superstitionn, at least it escapes devolving into mere religion.

Quote:
There are millions and millions of bytes that load up into the ram of your computer each time you turn it on and if even one single bit of a byte did not read right the computer would not start and run properly.

You have a bit to learn about the way computers work. Look into boolean matrices, error correction and parity.

Quote:
Once the computer is up and running then it has full functionality... God is the programmer...

That certainly could explain the errors, bugs, flaws, crashes, and assorted other inconveniences and unpleasantries of the life experience ... the more elaborate the code, the more opportunity for screwups;l ook at Windows, for instance.


Hmmmmmm .... Bill Gates as god ... well, no more or less improbable than some other candidates, many of which already are accorded the title, deserving or not, extant or not.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2006 12:33 am
Timber, one can look to the flaws and the errors or we can look to the imperceptibility of the continuum that has remained "on" and powered up for eternity. We can compare building the universe with a hammer and nails but is that really apt at conveying the depth of how absolutely wondrous our universe is?

You belittle the human species and you do not even know what we will evolve into..

You act as if some slime in a puddle of mud on some distant planet is going to rival the human being...

I don't know how your slander on God and creation (the dumbing down) is really helpful?

I find in this forum we may never agree but science trying to study God is like a rock trying to study itself...

There is such learning and knowledge just beyond the wall of science...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2006 12:46 am
A twenty foot set of wings would be very hard to fit in the front door...
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2006 06:09 am
RexRed wrote:
farmerman wrote:
rex
Quote:
If the laws that caused life on earth had one single flaw then the outcome would have been disastrous and not what it is today. That means an infinity of parameters were set in the beginning and not one single one has ever failed.
And you deduce this how? Youve just short circuited all work on evolution and rendered it irrelevant.


Maybe so, could you explain?


"Maybe so"... like you really think FM was serious. Hahahah, that's too funny. And then you ask FM to explain to you what the hell it was you wrote. Smile You're killin' me.

I've never seen the idea of "you don't know what you're talking about" demonstrated so clearly.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2006 07:41 am
rosborne979 wrote:
RexRed wrote:
farmerman wrote:
rex
Quote:
If the laws that caused life on earth had one single flaw then the outcome would have been disastrous and not what it is today. That means an infinity of parameters were set in the beginning and not one single one has ever failed.
And you deduce this how? Youve just short circuited all work on evolution and rendered it irrelevant.


Maybe so, could you explain?


"Maybe so"... like you really think FM was serious. Hahahah, that's too funny. And then you ask FM to explain to you what the hell it was you wrote. Smile You're killin' me.

I've never seen the idea of "you don't know what you're talking about" demonstrated so clearly.


I just don't act so haughty as to think I am always right...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2006 08:21 am
And Ros I still think FM was serious, he certainly did not indicate by anything in his post that he did not believe what he was saying.

I am not so overtaken by my own perspectives when I cannot see that someone other than myself is making sense too. I do not have to resort to insults of FM's intelligence because, I can go the extra mile and think of a relative rebuttal.

After all, FM is right, evolution certainly represents chaos/change/diversity (still within limits) and not just the constant ... But again the constant is how evolution led to pre ordained roads of diversity. The constant is what leads to the "right change" and survival. Evolution of biology was preordained by the earth and it's parameters. The earth was preordained by the universe' parameters and the universe was preordained by the big bang's limitations and so on...

You seem to forget Ros, I believe in evolution too, but, I also believe it was God who set evolution into motion. For it is order within chaos that brings constant change not chaos alone, thus intelligent design has preceded every evolution. Those systems that resist change find chaos... Disobedience from intelligence leads back to chaos and loss of functionality. So there was functionality lost to Adam and Eve because they devolved. thus we have some today still stuck in their exact same devolution. They doubt God's word which is the constant or "truth".

It is not like all species dies out, some survived and this was the constant too...

Adam and Eve had only one obvious constant in "paradise", God's word..

It is only when we defy the constant that dissension leads to chaos and out of chaos, still present within chaos, the constant leads to survival, modification and newly acquired function.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2006 08:56 am
It is weird to think that we could add a lower lobe onto a rat's brain and they could possibly believe in God... Some animals may already. Dogs seem always spooked by things that go bang in the night like they are always aware of a "presence"... But can they KNOW agape?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2006 09:01 am
Rex, my opening questionYOU DEDUCE THIS HOW? was serious. The rest was a tongue in cheek projection that, if I were to take you seriously in many of your posts, my comment could be a real outcome.

Now to turn my question back on to me makes me suspect (just a bit) that youre just spouting off without engaging the thought process.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2006 09:03 am
Could you really resist it if your mind was showing you "visions" of 75 virgins and whispering in your ear, "go blow yourself up"?

How do we know the truth from error when it comes to spiritual matters? People build error upon error where error becomes the constant...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2006 09:08 am
farmerman wrote:
Rex, my opening questionYOU DEDUCE THIS HOW? was serious. The rest was a tongue in cheek projection that, if I were to take you seriously in many of your posts, my comment could be a real outcome.

Now to turn my question back on to me makes me suspect (just a bit) that youre just spouting off without engaging the thought process.


Again FM you have a way of phrasing things that don't make any sense to me... It may just be the way my mind relates to words...

When I say something sarcastic I usually indicate I am being sarcastic so as to lead to some sort of point and not just drop it off into confusion all around...

I have no problem with "real outcomes" (I guess), this is an open debate on evolution isn't it?
0 Replies
 
 

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