Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 05:36 am
Eorl wrote:
real life wrote:


So since this source doesn't understand how it could be done, does it follow that it cannot be done?



That's funny coming from you, on this particular thread.



I second that motion, and take the opportunity to highlight the irony . . .
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 07:27 am
Eorl wrote:
real life wrote:


So since this source doesn't understand how it could be done, does it follow that it cannot be done?



That's funny coming from you, on this particular thread.


I also admire Eorl's observation.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 07:55 am
timberlandko wrote:
Of course, those of your persuasion have an answer ready-made to refute mere logic, reason, and factual evidence: "It was a miracle".


Exactly. I don't know why this Arc debate continues. It's like debating the physics of a Bugs Bunny cartoon. Pure fantasy.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 08:02 am
I liked the part where he turned the 40 days into 120 years, and then expected us to believe: a., that the joker lived that long, and b., that he and his superannuated sons built the sucker, stowed all the critters and their provender, and then put to sea in horrendous storms for more than a year.

Bugs Bunny's got nothin' on these jokers . . .
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 08:04 am
I think the reason that the Flood is continually brought up in the Evolution thread, is that some of the evolutionary proponents on the thread find it a helpful distraction from the topic when they cannot come up with something pertinent on topic.

If you look back and see who usually interjects the topic of the Flood into this thread, and when they do it, and the manner in which they keep coming back to it, you will see a consistent pattern.

Perhaps if they want to continue discussing the Flood, then it merits a thread of it's own , either new or reopen an old Flood thread.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 08:05 am
Personally, i've only ever responded to your comments about a world-wide flood, which is how this came up, lo those many pages ago.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 08:39 am
The disbelief of evolution and the belief in Genesis and much that follows it is pertinent to this discussion. Don't bring up subjects if you don't want them discussed. There have been overwhelming responses to the myth of the ark and it is just one example of the talent of those writers of fantasy, the secretaries of the desert. We're suppose to swallow that God was the dictator (sic) of the words written down by these wandering heads when most of the mythology they set down is from more ancient stories. They did their elaboration with imaginative finesse and it is entertaining, to an extent, to read. It's been largely debunked by scientific discoveries but some would rather get aboard a time machine and return to the Dark Ages.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 08:58 am
real life wrote:
I think the reason that the Flood is continually brought up in the Evolution thread, is that some of the evolutionary proponents on the thread find it a helpful distraction from the topic when they cannot come up with something pertinent on topic.


This is how it started (this time):

Lightwizard wrote:
One of the most astounding discoveries was the winged, feathered small dinosaur, the ancestor of birds:
http://www.evolutionpages.com/microraptor%20gui.htm

xingu wrote:
I suppose this is one of the one's that didn't make it to the ark.

Lightwizard wrote:
Two brontosaurs on an ark -- must have been a really large ark. Noah would have to keep them on either side or we'd have had an ancient Poseidon Adventure.

real life wrote:

Why do you assume that they had to be full grown?

For many practical reasons (space, food, managability, cleanup, breeding ), it would have been possible and reasonable to have younger, immature representatives of the larger species on board.


It seems pretty clear from this exchange that Xingu was making a sarcastic joke. Lightwizard followed it with another joke. And then you took it seriously and tried to defend the fantasy. But the weird part is that you *didn't* defend it by saying "it's magic", which would have been undebatable. Instead, you chose to defend it by plucking unreasonable conditions out of the air which all would need to be supported by magic in the end anyway. It's like you're desperate to make some kind of sense to the fantasy, or that you are embarassed by your core belief in magic.

Why do you diddle around with details, why don't you just say "it's magic" and be done with it. Ultimately, all your assumptions come down to magic anyway, why waste time with details?
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 09:48 am
Quote:
Exactly. I don't know why this Arc debate continues. It's like debating the physics of a Bugs Bunny cartoon. Pure fantasy.


It continues because it the ridiculousness of the flood and genesis story. The one thing both have in common is the total lack of logic and common sense, not to mentioned that neither is supported by science.

Real will not accept the Biblical timeline of the flood probably because there probably is a small iota of reason in him that says 4,300 years ago is to short a time for dinosaurs to be roaming around in Iraq and Egypt. So he pick some ambiguous "tens of thousands years ago."

Why? Why can't you accept what the Bible says?

While your at it Real can you please tell us where the Ice Ages fall in the Genesis myth. I believe there were four of them;

Nebraskan- 620,000-680,000 ya
Kansan- 240,000 - 455,000 ya
Illinoian- 125,000 - 200,000 ya
Wisconsinan- 15,000 - 70,000 ya

That's not counting the older ones that happened hundreds of millions of years ago. At this time animals were evolving and becoming extinct.

I'm not sure if you explained this to us in the past but if you did I missed it.

What does the ark story have to do with evolution? Well virtually all of the earths vegetation would have been destroyed by the ten thousand feet or more of water that covered the earth for six months. So where did today's vegetation come from. Why is there so much diversity? If most all of it was destroyed during the flood I would think there would be far fewer varieties of vegetation today. There are some plants that are very rare and found in isolated locations. How did they get there? Six months of crushing flood waters should have made them extinct.

Is this something else that can only be explained by "God's miracle?"

Could you please explain to us how the South American tree sloth swan all the way across the Pacific Ocean, landed in southeast Asia and ended up in the Middle East?

Can this only be explained through "God's miracle?"
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 09:56 am
Quote:
It seems pretty clear from this exchange that Xingu was making a sarcastic joke.


True, I was being sarcastic. But there is a relationship between the flood story and evolution. Not only is there a time line involved (were dinosaurs roaming the earth 4,300 years ago?) but there's the matter of vegetation, which I bought up in the previous post.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 10:00 am
Of course such a story is also central to the thesis of a young earth creationist, as the Ark story has to account for all species now living, and all species identified as once living and now extinct--because the refutation of a theory of evolution by a young earth creationist is the poofism that all varieties of life were created in situ in a single act of creation.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 10:09 am
Not to mention that they would have had Wylie E. Cayote, his mate and the Road Runner and his mate onboard -- there would have been a lot of bombs going off, breaching the wooden walls and sinking the ark. Sorry, folks, but I have trouble remaining serious about this when obviously here is some trolling going on here -- there is really no interest in actually studying evolution or they would be enrolled in a university course by now. They likely couldn't get past the tenth page of "Origin of the Species." I suggest they continue reading the mythological and magical fantasy of the Old Testament and return to blissfulness in their continued ignorance.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 11:53 am
LW wrote-

Quote:
I suggest they continue reading the mythological and magical fantasy of the Old Testament and return to blissfulness in their continued ignorance.


No doubt they will seeing as "blissfulness" is a state much to be preferred to the state of not being ignorant. Not being ignorant is all very well for those of us who can arrive at total enlightenment but it hardly constitutes bliss although I'm not really qualified to judge as I am profoundly ignorant myself.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 03:19 pm
Another Transitional Fossil.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 03:25 pm
spendius wrote:
LW wrote-

Quote:
I suggest they continue reading the mythological and magical fantasy of the Old Testament and return to blissfulness in their continued ignorance.


No doubt they will seeing as "blissfulness" is a state much to be preferred to the state of not being ignorant. Not being ignorant is all very well for those of us who can arrive at total enlightenment but it hardly constitutes bliss although I'm not really qualified to judge as I am profoundly ignorant myself.
I had a suspicion you ran with the Profoundly Ignorant Rabid Dog Motorcycle Gang (wear your colors or die). The ark had a spot for Harleys only I hear.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 03:30 pm
Here in Fascist Island, it would be Jaguars.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 07:39 pm
rosborne979 wrote:


This is absolutely fantastic. I just started a thread in Ecology/Environment on it.

Fantastic finding!

Quote:
A crucial fossil that shows how animals crawled out from the water, evolving from fish into land-loving animals, has been found in Canada.

The creature, described today in Nature, lived some 375 million years ago. Palaeontologists are calling the specimen from the Devonian a true 'missing link', as it helps to fill in a gap in our understanding of how fish developed legs for land mobility, before eventually evolving into modern animals including mankind.


Love the missing link.

Cool
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 07:40 pm
There's somethin' fishy 'bout that. Excuse me while I close the trailer door.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 09:18 pm
rosborne979 wrote:


Hi Ros,

Interesting find.

The article (probably unintentionally) highlights a problem that many supposed transitionals face: that is, they seem to violate evolutionary principle at the same time as they are being heralded for proving the validity of evolution.

Quote:
"Tiktaalik was probably an unwieldy swimmer," says John Maisey, a palaeontologist at the American Museum of Natural History in New York. It probably lived in shallow waters, says Maisey, only hauling itself on to land temporarily to escape predators. "Tetrapods did not so much conquer the land, as escape from the water," he says.


The implication of this is that the 'evolving' critter rendered itself unfit to live successfully in the water, so it had to find other habitat.

If the 'evolving' limbs from fins made Tiktaalik less able to survive and thrive in it's (then) present watery habitat, then it would seem that right off the bat, the supposed evolutionary advance conferred, not an advantage but a DISadvantage upon Tiktaalik.

The same could be said of the commonly repeated jawbone-to-ear story of established evolutionary lore.

If the receding jawbone made it's owner less capable of feeding itself as it shrunk into a tiny bone in the ear, then the DISadvantage conferred upon the unfortunate would seem to come into play long before any real advantage could be realized by a well developed apparatus for auditory info gathering.

-------------------------------

Another interesting question is this: Tiktaalik was found in Canada. It was supposedly a dweller in shallow water, so how are we to suppose that it crossed oceans to inhabit other continents?

Did all land dwellers stem from this line in Canada?

Or (assuming the shalow water dwelling fish COULD somehow have made it to other continents) did this same scenario of water-to-land play out on several continents, evolutionary 'lightning' striking , as it were, many or multiple times to produce land dwellers on all the continents?

(Some have contended that structures such as the eye, for example, may have evolved independently in as many as 40 separate instances or MORE, but this simply stretches credulity.

Does anyone truly suppose that a complex structure such as an eye could have evolved to a high state of complexity and precise function, starting from scratch on 40 occasions?)
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 10:20 pm
Quote:
Quote:

"Tiktaalik was probably an unwieldy swimmer," says John Maisey, a palaeontologist at the American Museum of Natural History in New York. It probably lived in shallow waters, says Maisey, only hauling itself on to land temporarily to escape predators. "Tetrapods did not so much conquer the land, as escape from the water," he says.



The implication of this is that the 'evolving' critter rendered itself unfit to live successfully in the water, so it had to find other habitat.

If the 'evolving' limbs from fins made Tiktaalik less able to survive and thrive in it's (then) present watery habitat, then it would seem that right off the bat, the supposed evolutionary advance conferred, not an advantage but a DISadvantage upon Tiktaalik.


You assume that this animal lived under the constant threat of predation, which is not always the case. And even if the critter did live under some threat of predation, you assume that the advantage conferred by moving into this margin of the then-habitable world did not in itself confer some advantage to the animal. There may have been food to get in the shallows for which there was no competition, egg-laying spots that were not vulnerable to whatever critters liked to go around eating eggs. It may even be that the predators around were such superior swimmers that even swimming to the greatest of its abilities was not as effective an escape route for such a critter as simply clambering onto dry land. I'm no match for a shark, but I've spent plenty of time wading around in the surf of some of America's most notorious shark areas without any problems.


As to your "jawbone" beef...

Published on ScienceNOW on 1/18/2006 by Elizabeth Pennisi:
Quote:
Before we used the middle ear to amplify and transmit sound, fish used its components to breathe. Over time, a tube called a spiracle, which connects the gills to the water outside, evolved into a chamber behind the eardrum. And a bony strut that connects a fish's jaw hinge to the brain case became one of three tiny bones in this chamber. {emphasis added}

The early stages of this transition have now been studied by Martin Brazeau, a graduate student in evolutionary biology at Uppsala University, Sweden, and his advisor, paleontologist Per Ahlberg. The researchers analyzed a skull of Panderichthys--an ancient fish that evolved at about the same time as tetrapods (early four-legged land-dwellers) from a common ancestor. The team compared the fish's bones and head structure to fossils of a more primitive fish and an early tetrapod.


Since there are no bony attachments between the jawbone and the skull in any of the tetrapod skulls I've seen, I can imagine that this bit of bone may not have been essential to the animal's functioning.

Quote:
Another interesting question is this: Tiktaalik was found in Canada. It was supposedly a dweller in shallow water, so how are we to suppose that it crossed oceans to inhabit other continents?


http://geology.com/pangea-continental-drift.gif

Quote:
Some have contended that structures such as the eye, for example, may have evolved independently in as many as 40 separate instances or MORE, but this simply stretches credulity.


I've seen you bring this up before, without substantiating it. So -- show us somebody who's making this claim, so we at least have the opportunity to evaluate it.
0 Replies
 
 

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