cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2005 01:04 pm
I'm glad we turned into "sexual" beings.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2005 05:36 pm
Did anyone see the diagram that I made?

Did it make any sense to you or is it just me scribbling in a digital art program?

does the link work?

This was what came to me the other night so I put it in a visual diagram...

http://rexred.com/symbiosis.html

Is the diagram showing right in your browser?
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2005 05:51 pm
In the diagram in the lower left hand corner there are two cells that just split. There is a single dna strand in each cell represented by two sides. One cell inserted onto another cell. But instead of dying the cell lived because of possibly brief heightened conditions on the earth. So the cell exchanged dna material and began to replicate as one unit but dual output male and female yet still needing the single carrier to fertilize... We see cells being merged and still surviving all of the time in nature... Siamese twins.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2005 06:30 pm
rosborne wrote:

DNA and RNA are replicative molecules. At the early stages it probably looked a lot more like chemistry than life.

Comment:
That made me think, thx

I think life likely "started" in the bottom of the ocean in a volcanic vent belched like seeds from the earth. It grew from there and all life exists from these early events. I can see life coming out of these thermal furnaces all kinds of super complex particles charged with nuclear and chemical diversity pressurized, floating and nurtured deep in the ocean floor like a womb. The ocean still holds the most diverse strata of life on earth. I think a volcanic underwater duct could create in a spectacular event, spanning millions of years, a single simple life form if not a few variants. The interaction of these similar forms make a competition for development of mechanistic abilities and memory with the moon and tides.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2005 06:39 pm
RexR, Your last post makes much sense; I learned only recently (within the past 15 or so years) that there are animal life that lives close to the under sea vulcanic activity. Before learning about this, I thought any life form would have burned/boiled to death. Many mysteries in this world we still are learning about.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2005 06:40 pm
I might also mention that the reason the volcanic earth's oceans floor made life is directly in relation to the sun and the sun bringing the earth to the exact right temperature and balance with the moon to allow this type of chemical complexity of life to form. The sun is actually too hot for the earth... and life was the earth's way of fighting back.

It is much better to have the sun a bit too hot than a bit too cold... then we can collect the free energy... how convenient for us.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2005 11:12 pm
http://www.povray.org/community/hof/2b.php
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 07:10 am
RexRed wrote:
I might also mention that the reason the volcanic earth's oceans floor made life is directly in relation to the sun and the sun bringing the earth to the exact right temperature and balance with the moon to allow this type of chemical complexity of life to form. The sun is actually too hot for the earth... and life was the earth's way of fighting back.


The Earth is just a big molten rock with a crust. How can anything be *too hot* or *too cold* for it. It doesn't care.

When life formed here it formed in the conditions which were present at the time. As conditions changed, life adapted to the changes (evolution). Is it any surprise therefor that life now fits the temperature and conditions on the Earth?

Earth has characteristics unique within our solar system, allowing life not only to begin, but to evolve. Is it more reasonable to think that those conditions were selected to support life, and evolution as we see it, or that life (which we already know is adaptable), simply used the conditions available to it.

If you throw a penny onto the ground, it will come to rest somewhere. You can spend your time marveling at the remote chance that it came to rest in the exact place it finally did (what are the chances of it landing on *that* particular place?), or you can shrug and say, "eh, that's where it landed, so what". The pennies of the Universe are scattered amid the stars, forming conditions as they may, and rudimentary life may be common, adapting to what it can and failing where it can't.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 07:41 am
rosborne979 wrote:
RexRed wrote:
I might also mention that the reason the volcanic earth's oceans floor made life is directly in relation to the sun and the sun bringing the earth to the exact right temperature and balance with the moon to allow this type of chemical complexity of life to form. The sun is actually too hot for the earth... and life was the earth's way of fighting back.


The Earth is just a big molten rock with a crust. How can anything be *too hot* or *too cold* for it. It doesn't care.

When life formed here it formed in the conditions which were present at the time. As conditions changed, life adapted to the changes (evolution). Is it any surprise therefor that life now fits the temperature and conditions on the Earth?

Earth has characteristics unique within our solar system, allowing life not only to begin, but to evolve. Is it more reasonable to think that those conditions were selected to support life, and evolution as we see it, or that life (which we already know is adaptable), simply used the conditions available to it.

If you throw a penny onto the ground, it will come to rest somewhere. You can spend your time marveling at the remote chance that it came to rest in the exact place it finally did (what are the chances of it landing on *that* particular place?), or you can shrug and say, "eh, that's where it landed, so what". The pennies of the Universe are scattered amid the stars, forming conditions as they may, and rudimentary life may be common, adapting to what it can and failing where it can't.


If you toss pennies and already know where they are going to land, that is even better.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 07:53 am
If the earth is just a rock and if it did make life it is a bit more than a rock, it is a parent. The sun/heat absorbing life on the earth is a reason for it's existence. Some think the earth's rocks are alive. I would not disagree with this because I do not really know. Crystal quartz etc... I also would not assume that the earth could not become "uncomfortable" if the sun did become too hot for it. Life may have been it's protective mechanism as is it's atmosphere. Mars may be dead... but the Earth seems to be alive. Maybe that is because the sun is not too hot...
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 08:09 am
RexRed wrote:
If you toss pennies and already know where they are going to land, that is even better.


Especially if someone will take the bet. Wink
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 08:11 am
RexRed wrote:
If the earth is just a rock and if it did make life it is a bit more than a rock, it is a parent. The sun/heat absorbing life on the earth is a reason for it's existence. Some think the earth's rocks are alive. I would not disagree with this because I do not really know. Crystal quartz etc... I also would not assume that the earth could not become "uncomfortable" if the sun did become too hot for it. Life may have been it's protective mechanism as is it's atmosphere. Mars may be dead... but the Earth seems to be alive. Maybe that is because the sun is not too hot...


Wow, you must have loved your Pet Rock.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 09:39 am
Quote:
In the diagram in the lower left hand corner there are two cells that just split. There is a single dna strand in each cell represented by two sides. One cell inserted onto another cell. But instead of dying the cell lived because of possibly brief heightened conditions on the earth. So the cell exchanged dna material and began to replicate as one unit but dual output male and female yet still needing the single carrier to fertilize... We see cells being merged and still surviving all of the time in nature... Siamese twins.


I'm kinda fuzzy on the diagram. I thnk it would be clearer in a linear diagram, with in-depth captions set out for each point.

As far as the sexual thing goes, though, you may not be that far off base, if I'm understanding you right. We have a tendency, as animals, to think of sex as we know it: the dominant life form is diploid, and sets aside a small population of cells to split into monoploid cells so that they can recombine with other monoploid cells and reproduce. Our is a highly specialized take on sexual reproduction, and it is much simpler in so-called "lower" organisms.

Slime molds, for instance, are really unicellular (monoploid) organisms most of the time. When food starts to run low, some species of slime mold emit chemical attractants that they can follow to form an aggregate called a "slug" -- which really does look and move a lot like a slug. This aggregate migrates a bit, and forms a "fruiting body" -- a stalk with a bulb on the top of it. At the top of the fruiting body, sex happens. That, these unicellular organisms merge, undergo genetic recombination, then undergo meiosis to form monoploids again. These encyst, dry out, and are dispersed on the breeze, hopefully to an area with more food (perhaps a centimeter away -- these buggers are really small).

It's bona fide sexual reproduction, in organisms where cells do not specialize (which cells in the fruiting are "stalk" and which ones get to have sex is purely a matter of where they end up in the structure). It's not much more complicated in the fungi, a little less complicated in protists that do the sexual gene shuffle, and far more complicated in plants and animals.

(Here's a slime mold link -- it may not jibe exactly with what I'm saying, since I'm pulling this life cycle out of the dim recesses of memory.)

(Plants do provide a nice window into sexual reproduction, though. Unlike animals -- which are, in fact, the exception -- most of the plants tissues are made of monoploid cells. Only the sexual structures are diploid.)
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 10:13 am
patiodog wrote:
Slime molds, for instance, are really unicellular (monoploid) organisms most of the time. When food starts to run low, some species of slime mold emit chemical attractants that they can follow to form an aggregate called a "slug" -- which really does look and move a lot like a slug.


http://www.shortcourses.com/naturelog/slime-mold-05.jpg

Here in New Hampshire it looks more like this:

http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/jpitocch/genbios/28-29x1-PlasmodialSlimeMold.jpg
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 11:32 am
rosborne's quote, "Wow, you must have loved your Pet Rock." Hey, don't laugh. Those pet rocks sold like barbie dolls at one time, and made the "creators" of that idea millions.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 11:33 am
BTW, I think those are the same people wanting to keep Terri Schiavo alive; both have no ability to cognition.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 11:34 am
Some people's brain are filled with rock, and some people have liquid.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 02:40 pm
It only makes sense that if the earth/sun can make life they logically are alive. I not only think rocks could be living but light is possibly "alive" too...

Look at the diversity of rocks, much like the diversity of nature... like rocks evolved too...

Terry... not funny...

rosborne and patio nice posts...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 02:43 pm
RexR, It's true that many living things evolve into rocks.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 02:48 pm
patiodog wrote:
Quote:
In the diagram in the lower left hand corner there are two cells that just split. There is a single dna strand in each cell represented by two sides. One cell inserted onto another cell. But instead of dying the cell lived because of possibly brief heightened conditions on the earth. So the cell exchanged dna material and began to replicate as one unit but dual output male and female yet still needing the single carrier to fertilize... We see cells being merged and still surviving all of the time in nature... Siamese twins.


I'm kinda fuzzy on the diagram. I thnk it would be clearer in a linear diagram, with in-depth captions set out for each point.

As far as the sexual thing goes, though, you may not be that far off base, if I'm understanding you right. We have a tendency, as animals, to think of sex as we know it: the dominant life form is diploid, and sets aside a small population of cells to split into monoploid cells so that they can recombine with other monoploid cells and reproduce. Our is a highly specialized take on sexual reproduction, and it is much simpler in so-called "lower" organisms.

Slime molds, for instance, are really unicellular (monoploid) organisms most of the time. When food starts to run low, some species of slime mold emit chemical attractants that they can follow to form an aggregate called a "slug" -- which really does look and move a lot like a slug. This aggregate migrates a bit, and forms a "fruiting body" -- a stalk with a bulb on the top of it. At the top of the fruiting body, sex happens. That, these unicellular organisms merge, undergo genetic recombination, then undergo meiosis to form monoploids again. These encyst, dry out, and are dispersed on the breeze, hopefully to an area with more food (perhaps a centimeter away -- these buggers are really small).

It's bona fide sexual reproduction, in organisms where cells do not specialize (which cells in the fruiting are "stalk" and which ones get to have sex is purely a matter of where they end up in the structure). It's not much more complicated in the fungi, a little less complicated in protists that do the sexual gene shuffle, and far more complicated in plants and animals.

(Here's a slime mold link -- it may not jibe exactly with what I'm saying, since I'm pulling this life cycle out of the dim recesses of memory.)

(Plants do provide a nice window into sexual reproduction, though. Unlike animals -- which are, in fact, the exception -- most of the plants tissues are made of monoploid cells. Only the sexual structures are diploid.)


I may use your linear idea and make several diagrams on a series of webpages so it goes in stages. Any input would be helpful.

I will link it to you all here

I think for a simple diagram it says allot.
thx
0 Replies
 
 

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