Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Mar, 2006 07:49 pm
That's a great little instant education essay, Timber.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Mar, 2006 09:33 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
Carl Sagan in an experiment in the PBS series "Cosmos" came up with a primordial organic matter from non-living chemicals and minerals that were present in the water of a very early Earth. Electricity played a part (lightning) if I remember right. It's been performed more than once -- now too length a search as I am at work in the gallery today (no rest for the wicked!) and do not have the time to find links. This is like helping people who are students in first year college in anthropology, geology, plate teutonics, et al. Not really interested in that if the don't personally want to study. It requires a open mind to science and time -- those in denial don't want their bubble burst so they will use any excuse not to do their own research.


Are you claiming or attempting to imply that Sagan generated a living organism? If not, then what you are saying is that he produced non-living matter from non-living matter. Quite a feat !!

And maybe you can tell us all you know about plate teutonics. Should be interesting. Laughing
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Mar, 2006 09:56 pm
Abiotic Production of Organic Molecules
The classic experiment demonstrating the mechanisms by which inorganic elements could combine to form the precursors of organic chemicals was the 1950 experiment by Stanley Miller. He undertook experiments designed to find out how lightning--reproduced by repeated electric discharges--might have affected the primitive earth atmosphere. He discharged an electric spark into a mixture thought to resemble the primordial composition of the atmosphere. In a water receptacle, designed to model an ancient ocean, amino acids appeared. Amino acids are widely regarded as the building blocks of life.
Although the primitive atmosphere is no longer believed to be as rich in hydrogen as once thought, the discovery that the Murchison meteorite contains the same amino acids obtained by Miller, and even in the same relative proportions, suggests strongly that his results are relevant.The Beginnings of Life on Earth


Others have made similar experiments. A group at the Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry at the University of California, San Diego, exposed sulfur-bearing molecules like those thought to have been present before the Earth formed to low levels of light. The presence of the light was enough to generate organic compounds - molecules containing carbon, which form the chemical basis of life as we know it. Meteorite Reveals Life Not Difficult to Make


The new compounds had a distinct isotopic (atomic makeup) signature, not normally found on Earth. In fact, the peculiar part is that these isotopes have only been found one other time, in compounds removed from the Murchison meteorite.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Mar, 2006 09:57 pm
The mars probe have shown evidence it once had water. With that possibility, the odds of "life" on mars is a good possibility. Research continues.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Mar, 2006 10:06 pm
real life wrote:
And maybe you can tell us all you know about plate teutonics. Should be interesting. Laughing
After the Christian forces were defeated in the Middle East, the Teutonic Plates moved to Transylvania in 1211, but they were expelled in 1225 because they only had desert plates. The Teutonic Plates then moved to Prussia, since in 1945 northern Poland did not have room for desert, they then created the independent Teutonic Plate Order state.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Mar, 2006 11:09 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Abiotic Production of Organic Molecules
The classic experiment demonstrating the mechanisms by which inorganic elements could combine to form the precursors of organic chemicals was the 1950 experiment by Stanley Miller. He undertook experiments designed to find out how lightning--reproduced by repeated electric discharges--might have affected the primitive earth atmosphere. He discharged an electric spark into a mixture thought to resemble the primordial composition of the atmosphere. In a water receptacle, designed to model an ancient ocean, amino acids appeared. Amino acids are widely regarded as the building blocks of life.
Although the primitive atmosphere is no longer believed to be as rich in hydrogen as once thought, the discovery that the Murchison meteorite contains the same amino acids obtained by Miller, and even in the same relative proportions, suggests strongly that his results are relevant.The Beginnings of Life on Earth


Others have made similar experiments. A group at the Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry at the University of California, San Diego, exposed sulfur-bearing molecules like those thought to have been present before the Earth formed to low levels of light. The presence of the light was enough to generate organic compounds - molecules containing carbon, which form the chemical basis of life as we know it. Meteorite Reveals Life Not Difficult to Make


The new compounds had a distinct isotopic (atomic makeup) signature, not normally found on Earth. In fact, the peculiar part is that these isotopes have only been found one other time, in compounds removed from the Murchison meteorite.


Miller produced non-living compounds from non-living chemicals. Truly an amazing thing.

Even if he had managed to 'create' a living organism (which he was nowhere near doing) , the only thing he would have 'proven' is that it is possible to produce a living organism thru the use of Intelligence and Planning (Design). Laughing

It would not prove that it would have or could have happened by random chance.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Mar, 2006 11:16 pm
The only thing you would consider as "proof" would be to go back in time and see for yourself. Nothing else right?

And even if you could go back in time and see for yourself you would still argue it was the hand of god. Right?

So why bother with the dialogue?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Mar, 2006 11:39 pm
rl, ya gotta get over the "Random Chance" BS - it ain't random chance that physics and chemistry work the way they do, and the way physics and chemistry work, life arose on Earth - plain and simple, no magic, no accident, no mystery; that's just the way things work in the real world ... its real life.

Now, once again: demonstrate in objective, forensically valid manner that religious faith be differentiable from superstition.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Mar, 2006 11:42 pm
real life wrote:
Miller produced non-living compounds from non-living chemicals. Truly an amazing thing.


He produced amino acids from an approximation of the natural conditions on an early Earth. How long will you continue to avoid making any kind of intelligent deduction from the obvious clues.

You're like an anti-Sherlock Holmes, blindly stumbling through evidence and avoiding obvious deductions, all the while rambling on about the magical fairy that explains it all.

You're also becoming a one trick debate pony, feigning total ignorance of logical deduction, and arguing mere coincidence as an explanation for overlapping interrelated conclusions from every branch of scientific study.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Mar, 2006 11:56 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
You're also becoming a one trick debate pony, feigning total ignorance of logical deduction, and arguing mere coincidence as an explanation for overlapping interrelated conclusions from every branch of scientific study.


Where you been the last 7000 posts or so - out fishing? rl isn't "becoming a one trick debate pony"; he's stuck right with the the only trick ID-iots have.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 12:04 am
'Sup, Timber?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 12:08 am
Hey, Neo - how ya doin? - Haven't bumped into you for a while - my fault, no doubt - oughtta get out more, I'm sure.

Ackshully, I've been putting in a buncha time over in the Computers forum, been neglecting other stuff, really.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 12:11 am
This is one busy thread. I can't keep up.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 07:31 am
Now rl wants to be taught about plate tectonics (jibbing me for a typo -- typical of a deadhead).

If I were to begin correcting his grammar, my blue pencil would have been worn down to a stub by now.

That aside, this person seems to be doing a homework assignment. Maybe sixth grade?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:12 am
timberlandko wrote:
The absurdity of your entropy objection, rl, lies in thorough misunderstanding both of the 2cnd Law of Thermodynamics and of chemistry. You see, entropy, in the sense you attribute, applies only to a closed system. Given that the earth receives enormous energy fron the sun, it by defintion is not a closed system. Then, of course, there is the energy of gravity, and of orbital momentum, and of extra-solar radiation - all of it energy being input to the Earth.There is in fact no reason to conclude the universe iitself is a closed system; there are indications it may be, but we just don't know for sure.

The 2cnd Law pertains to the properties, attributes, and tendencies of energy, not to objects, molecules, or organisms. However, a basic understanding of chemistry makes plain that the 2cnd Law is no predictor of disorder, but rather, in a dynamic system, mandates that energy be not restricted to one plane, location, or set of parameters, but to disperse throughout the environment, much a a gas seeks to expand to fill the available space. As energy constantly is being input into the system of which Earth is a component, energy acts continually on everything within the system.

Chemically, the individual components of many sorts of molecules are at once more energetic and less ordered than are the molecules themselves. Take water, for instance - a compound which has inherently less energy either than oxygen or hydrogen, its elemental constituents, and is far more complex than any single atom of hydrogen or oxygen. Within a dynamic system, the 2cnd Law orders the formation of increasingly complex entities, as the action of energy upon atoms and molecules brings about combinations and compounds, and synthesis, catalysis, and other chemical reactions, driven both by the energy inherent to the individual componets of compounds and by the energy constantly being input into the system progresses inexorably to more and more complex systems being formed from the basic, elemental, atomic-level building blocks.


This seems rather obvious, but by your logic the 2nd law would apply to absolutely NOTHING because there are no closed systems by your definition. How can the 2nd Law be a law if it applies to nothing?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:16 am
Lightwizard wrote:
Now rl wants to be taught about plate tectonics (jibbing me for a typo -- typical of a deadhead).

If I were to begin correcting his grammar, my blue pencil would have been worn down to a stub by now.

That aside, this person seems to be doing a homework assignment. Maybe sixth grade?


Sorry if I hurt your feelings, Lightwiz.

Feel free to correct my grammar any time you wish.

How 'bout answering the question about Sagan?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:21 am
You only wish you hurt my feelings. I have thicker skin. It is considered petty to call attention to typos but apparantly you haven't been on forums long enough to have learned that. I'm waiting for the ALL CAPS.

The question has been answered satisfactorily by others. It will only be a question of time before the organic primordial matter is coaxed into a living organism. Oh, horrors! Lowly people playing God. Haven't they read Frankenstein?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:26 am
Lightwizard wrote:
The question has been answered satisfactorily by others. It will only be a question of time before the organic primordial matter is coaxed into a living organism. Oh, horrors! Lowly people playing God. Haven't they read Frankenstein?


Smile

Yup, I can hear it now, all the moaning and whailing... just like stem cells, and then the pres will ban primordial ooze coaxing... oh woways us Smile
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:36 am
Lightwizard wrote:
....... It will only be a question of time before the organic primordial matter is coaxed into a living organism. Oh, horrors! Lowly people playing God. Haven't they read Frankenstein?


If a few PhDs lay careful plans and do manage to 'create' a living organism, wouldn't that be proof that life is possible using Intelligent Design?

It certainly wouldn't prove that it happened by chance, would it?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:40 am
I'm sure rl is just as frightened over stem cells which, in essence, is not what Mary Shelley was conjecturing.

I keep thinking "It's alive! It's alive!" in "Young Frankenstein" and have to laugh.

Fear of evolution is true is an affliction some will never overcome. They will continue to take their feeble pot-shots at the science not ever having read enough to know what they are writing about.
It's a bits-and-pieces education.

Now I have to go an reorganize my library of books on evolution. I'll be back in a few hours.
0 Replies
 
 

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