real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 10:18 am
RexRed wrote:
timberlandko wrote:
rl, whether you see my point or not, your comment deviously misconstrues the point, exhibiting disregard for intellectual honesty typical of ID-iots and wholly consistent with their luddite agenda. If the public education system imparted to its charges actual knowledge, logic, and reason as opposed to socially acceptable pablum, the medieval absurdity of the Fundamentalist Christian proposition would be far more generally recognized for the irrational foolishness it is as opposed to being granted any credence whatsoever, let alone being granted any political influence whatsoever.

Let us return to an earlier theme; demonstrate objectively and in forensically valid manner that faith be differentiable from superstition.


Superstition only tries to make sense out of randomness.

Science desires no less...

One example, SETI, it is like listening to white noise on a TV waiting for God to talk...

Smile


SETI is a great example to bring up, Rex.

If scientists encounter 'information' , as opposed to white noise, while listening in on the universe, will not they assume that information had to originate from an intelligent source?

Therefore, how is it supposed that the information that cells carry in DNA was randomly generated? It presupposes an intelligent source as well.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 10:35 am
My faith and yours are very similar, Timber. You have no empirical evidence of life ever arising from non-life, and I have always maintained that Creation was not observed by any man.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 10:39 am
SETI is not a good analogy for biological organisms. SETI involves interpretation of radio waves that may indicate alien intelligence (not divine intelligence).

There is no methodology to distinguish a "designed" organism from an organism that evolved through natural processes.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 10:39 am
real life, If we can rely on scientist's observations and deductions about life on this planet arising from non-life, it's a few steps ahead of your belief about creation that has absolutely zero verifiable support.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 10:42 am
timber wrote-

Quote:
spendi, the trend away from real education is relatively recent; to all proctical purposes it began in the latter 1960s and has been having increasing effect as its products - the teachers and administrators turned out by the system - have come more and more to staff the system. In a very real sense we are paying today for the permissiveness and moral relativism under which the generation today in power came of age. In the minds and priorities of today's faculty and students, aroma therapy has supplanted algebra, women's studies has replaced world history, media analysis ranks above mechanical engineering, and the dumbing down of society becomes ever more evident. Schooling used to be - and must return to being - about "'reading, 'riting and 'rithmetic" - along with reason, responsibility, and results. Fortunately, the pendulum appears to be swinging in the proper direction, and though the education establishment is kicking and screaming in objection, current intitiatives promise to establish - and to hold the education establishment responsible for - results calculated to equip tomorrow's graduates to deal effectively with the challenges and opportunities of a techologically evolving world. The days of touchy-feely, politically correct, feel-good education are coming to an end, and long past about time.


I more or less agree with that timber.

But I'm not sure we are right.It begs a few questions.We need to decide what the future holds to come to these conclusions.It may be that aroma therapy,women's studies and media analysis will be more useful in that future for the general population than algebra,world history (remember Henry Ford) and mechanical engineering.The three last might become specialisations of a high order.
We could be seeing the slow process of producing Huxley's "alpha,beta,gamma" structure.The difficulty,of course,is nepotism which Huxley invented the bottle babies to overcome.The decline of monarchies in response to the industrial revolution is precisely because today's alphas cannot produce tomorrow's.

They may "read" in a different way than we are used to.I think they do.

So while I sympathise with the idea of the 6 Rs I am aware that my position,and yours,might be out of date.I spoke to an 18 year old girl in the pub the other night and I couldn't understand a word she said.She was off my radar and we were speaking about her college course.She self evidently wasn't stupid.She was talking about getting a degree is about all I could make out.Us old fogeys may bemoan this but she is going to have to live in 2080 maybe.She,or one like her,is going to be providing me with essential services before too much more time has passed.

Your conclusion is a bit too easy.The question of educating elites and workers goes way back.It might become a matter of earlier selection and streaming.That is done in sport.Our top sporting organisations run courses and support for 8 year olds who their scouts have identified as having promise.The Russians (Soviets then) started in some areas such as gymnastics with 4 year olds with useful bone structures.They even used growth inhibitors in the training.Roger Federer was identified at 8 I read and was sent to a special tennis academy.I know two young lads (10 and 11) who are in a top soccer club's youth programme along with dozens of others.All sports do it and the one's with the biggest viewing figures do it most.

If you want to win the prizes that is what it is going to take it seems to me whether you or I like it or not.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 11:37 am
Quote:
Therefore, how is it supposed that the information that cells carry in DNA was randomly generated? It presupposes an intelligent source as well.

Are we to suppose that every life crippling affliction caused by genes is intelligent design? That God cripples people on purpose?

Is every atom in the Universe, every chemical reaction, no matter how small or large, manipulated by God?

Is every chemical reaction in my body controlled by God? If so can I ask my wife to stop blaming me for the fragrance I emit after eating a cabbage dinner?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 11:44 am
I love garlic. LOL
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 03:01 pm
Well I think the Creationists have found another Noah's ark.
http://www.space.com/news/060309_ark_update.html

Seems like they're finding one every year.

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahsightings.html

http://www.space.com/images/060308_ark_quickbird_02.jpg
DigitalGlobe's QuickBird commercial remote sensing satellite imaged the Mt. Ararat "anomaly" in 2003. This image has never seen by the public until now. The anomaly is surrounded below by very rugged-looking strato-volcanic rock; however, the texture of the feature in question is relatively smooth and appears to be made of a different substance. Credit: DigitalGlobe
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 03:53 pm
Religionists are getting so desperate to find something, their imagination has gone wild. LOL
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 03:56 pm
SETI is the worst example real life could ever think up of. As far as I'm concerned, SETI is non-science and a waste of money.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 03:57 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Religionists are getting so desperate to find something, their imagination has gone wild. LOL


Optical illusions, like the Virgin Mary in the white fence. Your brain aggregates things into patterns and you see what you want to see. Is that what you're saying?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 03:58 pm
Precisely! Wink
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 04:10 pm
xingu wrote:
DigitalGlobe's QuickBird commercial remote sensing satellite imaged the Mt. Ararat "anomaly" in 2003. This image has never seen by the public until now. The anomaly is surrounded below by very rugged-looking strato-volcanic rock; however, the texture of the feature in question is relatively smooth and appears to be made of a different substance. Credit: DigitalGlobe (emphasis added)


Note the language emphasized above--it is a hallmark of hucksterism. What is alleged to be apparent in that blurb may not necessarily be at all apparent. Given that the easiest way to determine what the conmposition of the formation referred to is on the ground, and not from a satellite, i was immediately reminded of Van Daniken.

http://www.unmuseum.org/nazfig.jpg

In referring to the giant egraved figures on the plains of Nazca in Peru, Van Danikan asserts that, give their size, they could only have been laid out from above. To this, a group of scientists (at the least, self-described scientists), using a NSF grant, set out to demonstrate that the technology of the day (estimated to be about 1700 years ago) could have produced hot air baloons. Of course, they did not then demonstrate by what means people in the basket of a hot air baloon, no matter how constructed, would have communicated with people on the ground. Imagine, though, if modern men attempted to make such figures, and to control the layout by instructions radioed from an aircraft overhead (the implied method to which Van Daniken refers, as he attempts to suggests that the biomorphs at Nazca are evidence of alien visitation). It would be a classic "chinese fire drill" scenario.

Rather, however, than to accept a crackpot theory, and attempt to demonstrate it is wrong in its own terms, it is a much simpler matter to simply reject those terms. In the case of Nazca, there is a method which children can be taught--grid transfer--which allows a small design to be made into a very large design. A drawing is made, and then overlaid with a grid. On the ground, the grid would be replicated at ten-to-one, fifty-to-one, even one hundred-to-one, and, voilĂ , you have your giant monkey or hummingbird without neef for or reference to aircraft, human or alien.

The same applies here with this Mount Ararat dodge. Anyone who uses only that rather imprecise photo and attempts to explain "the anomoly" is playing the BS artist's game. On what basis is one correct in describing the marked area of the photograph as evidence of an anomoly? It is essential to hucksterism, including and especially religious hucksterism, to turn rhetoric on its head, and, using an illicit premise, attempt to force the sceptic to disprove a thesis which, by its nature, need not be accepted without proof.

The photo provided is not evidence of an anomoly, it proves nothing--nothing about "Noah's ark," and nothing about geology. As things stand, it's simply a photograph, which may or may not be interesting, depending upon how one feels about pictures of mountains.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 04:13 pm
xingu wrote:
Quote:
Therefore, how is it supposed that the information that cells carry in DNA was randomly generated? It presupposes an intelligent source as well.

Are we to suppose that every life crippling affliction caused by genes is intelligent design? That God cripples people on purpose?

Is every atom in the Universe, every chemical reaction, no matter how small or large, manipulated by God?

Is every chemical reaction in my body controlled by God? If so can I ask my wife to stop blaming me for the fragrance I emit after eating a cabbage dinner?


I think genetic defects are generally regarded as an error in the information and not as the original information, right?

Be that as it may, consider the billions of people who have no genetic defect. Are we to assume that the complex genetic information contained in the DNA of billions of people originated not from an intelligent source, but from trial and error? Hardly likely.

Information that follows patterns, carrying complex instructions for building, maintenance and repair of intricate chemical and biological structures, systems and processes and is finely tuned to accomplish the most delicate of tasks with incredible precision is probably not likely to put itself together.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 04:13 pm
real life wrote:
Generating a complex molecule is a far cry from producing a living organism.
I suggest you review the implications of proto life / proto virus as you know not from whence you speak.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 04:20 pm
Chumly wrote:
real life wrote:
Generating a complex molecule is a far cry from producing a living organism.
I suggest you review the implications of proto life / proto virus as you know not from whence you speak.


Same problem. You seem to think that by 'lowering the bar' you have solved it, but you haven't.

Go ahead. Lay out your case for proto-life and we'll have a good time.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 04:31 pm
Setanta

I did not write that. It was the caption that came with the picture.

Perhaps I should have put it in quotes.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 06:34 pm
c.i. wrote-

Quote:
Religionists are getting so desperate to find something, their imagination has gone wild.


That's what it takes old boy.You just want to keep it where you think you understand it you big girl's blouse you.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 07:17 pm
Comments about the shroud of Turin.

The Gospel account of the resurrection of Jesus in the book of John Chapter 20 verses 6 & 7 mentions bandages (plural) that were around Jesus body, with the one cloth wrapped that was around his head separately rolled up on it's own. Therefore, holy scripture does not support a singular cloth / shroud around Jesus that was marked by his resurrection.
Peter Garrido, England

The face on the Turin Shroud remain a physical aspect. Christianity is an individual's feelings towards faith and how we have communion with God, that's more important.
Hunggia, London UK

Belief is a powerful thing and if believing that the shroud is real helps people to understand their faith then what difference does it make whether it is real or fake?
Gregory Skorich, US

If it is a fake then why have no other fakes come into the public domain? If this was a fake of such brilliance surely other would have been created - perhaps this is the real thing and as such gives a true reflection of the face of Jesus. Are we still trying to deny something that happened?
Simon, UK

I saw the face of Jesus in a cloud yesterday afternoon
Rebecca, UK

The Shroud of Turin has been proved a fake many times. But the believers still close their eyes to the evidence. There is no worse blindness than the one of the person who doesn't want to see.
Sergio, Spain


The negative images of victims on walls in Nagasaki & Hiroshima were our first indication that the negative image on the ancient shroud was caused by a atomic sized flash. It's no wonder that the guards ran away. Also, the image could not be the imprint of any mortal, because it is a perfectly proportioned 6 foot male. NO ONE exactly fits into Leonardo Da Vinci's famous circle.
Susan, United States of America


I don't really understand why there is such controversy surrounding the shroud. Even if the method and time of its production fitted with the New Testament stories it says nothing about the identity of the face covered or, more importantly, the divinity of the historical figure of Jesus Christ.
Mark, UK

As a Christian I believe in a risen Jesus, not in a stained old cloth. Regardless of whether or not it's his authentic burial shroud (which I personally doubt), the issue really is that people who venerate it are worshipping an object rather than the one who continually said, "Have faith in Me."
Susanna, Canada


If Christ were alive today he would probably recoil at superstitious veneration of relics. Surely it is for his teachings that he is remembered and not the association with magical objects.
Gareth, UK

There are fanatics on both sides, religious and anti-religious, who are determined to use the Shroud for their own purposes. In itself, the Shroud cannot be a foundation for faith, because the Christian faith does not rest on relics, whether authenticated or not. On the other hand, scientists should study this curiosity carefully and with an open-mind. Forgery or genuine artical, medieval or ancient, it is a very interesting item indeed! For or against, there is no room here for preconceived notions about the Shroud.
Leon Pereira, Oxford, UK

You may come to your own conclusion.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 07:55 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
SETI is the worst example real life could ever think up of. As far as I'm concerned, SETI is non-science and a waste of money.


If you'll notice Wolf, I didn't bring it up.

But tell the truth now, if SETI located transmissions of some type that were obviously not random 'noise' , would not the scientific community's assumption be that the information originated from an intelligent source?

You know they would. Simply admit it.
0 Replies
 
 

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