Evolution? How?

Doktor S wrote:

Timber wrote:

If perfect, then, given the attributes inherent to perfection, such a being would have no want, need, or cause to create anything

Neat. I've never seen anyone but myself use this particular argument. I suppose it is just an inevitable logical conclusion if you follow it far enough.

rl wrote:

This is simply an assumption without foundation on your part what God might want; as opposed to what He might need; or what He might cause ( 3 completely different propostions, which you seem to want to treat as synonomous --- an illogical undertaking if ever there was).

The point you are completely missing/ignoring is that a perfect being would have no desire. It is already perfect, any change would indicate a move towards imperfection. It would not create, as that too would be a move towards a change of state, and hence imperfection.

So God doesn't need us. Whoever said he did?



I didn't need to have kids and sometimes they are a chore. But I think I'll keep them.

I didn't need to have kids and sometimes they are a chore. But I think I'll keep them.

If you refrain from reading your daughter's diary, are you diminished in any way? . . . Or, elevated?

But I'm not a God. What choose to know or not doesn't affect all of reality and the very nature of existance.

I think you need to weigh your argument against omnipotence.

neologist wrote:

If God does exist, would you have him bound by necessity?

It's not a matter of what I would have or not have. There are logistics associated with the concepts of omniscience and omnipotence which demand certain assumptions.

timberlandko wrote:

As defined by its scriptures, the god of the Abrahamic mythopaeia is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and - in particular - perfect.

And where is God defined as omnipresent or omniscient? Any citation would suffice.

If this is your definition of God, I don't believe in him either.

This is really a gigantic issue.

Quote:

I didn't need to have kids and sometimes they are a chore. But I think I'll keep them.

So if your going to have children, and love them, why would you kill them because they will not obey you? Is killing them an act of love?

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html

People have desires. One of those desires is procreation.
People are not 'perfect' (by whatever arbitrary standard you can muster) and hence are capable of desiring change.
But if the skydaddy was perfect to begin with,before anything existed, where would a desire for change come from? After all, he was already perfectly content.
Creation itself would have to be an indication of imperfection.

neologist wrote:

timberlandko wrote:

As defined by its scriptures, the god of the Abrahamic mythopaeia is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and - in particular - perfect.

And where is God defined as omnipresent or omniscient? Any citation would suffice.

If this is your definition of God, I don't believe in him either.

This is really a gigantic issue.

Interesting. I certainly can't cite any references to this, but it was my impression that *most* christians believed in an omniscient and omnipotent God.

Your vision of God must be something I'm not familiar with.

Neologist

What does A&E have to do with this?

Doktor S wrote:

People have desires. One of those desires is procreation.
People are not 'perfect' (by whatever arbitrary standard you can muster) and hence are capable of desiring change.
But if the skydaddy was perfect to begin with,before anything existed, where would a desire for change come from? After all, he was already perfectly content.
Creation itself would have to be an indication of imperfection.

Just a guess, but the quality of free will is such an outstanding trait, perhaps God wished to have other sentient beings share in it.

That would, I think, be called love.

People have desires. One of those desires is procreation.
People are not 'perfect' (by whatever arbitrary standard you can muster) and hence are capable of desiring change.
But if the skydaddy was perfect to begin with,before anything existed, where would a desire for change come from? After all, he was already perfectly content.
Creation itself would have to be an indication of imperfection.

Since you do not seem to believe in perfection, then imperfection cannot exist without a perfect standard against which to measure it.

So then what does a desire for change (or lack of it) have to do with imperfection? There can be no relationship between them if one does not exist.

Many people are 'imperfect' by your odd definition, but desire no change. In fact, they are quite happy with their 'imperfection'. What do you make of them?

But again, if a Being was perfect, why would that imply totally passivity and lack of interest in doing anything? Why would one attribute necessitate the other? Seems an unwarranted assumption.

RL wrote:

Since you do not seem to believe in perfection, then imperfection cannot exist without a perfect standard against which to measure it.

Agreed.

Quote:

So then what does a desire for change (or lack of it) have to do with imperfection? There can be no relationship between them if one does not exist.

Many people are 'imperfect' by your odd definition, but desire no change. In fact, they are quite happy with their 'imperfection'. What do you make of them?

You are building a strawman here. I didn't say a desire for change was the only disqualification for 'perfection'(and yes, this is assuming an absolute standard by which to measure perfection by, which is a huge assumption)

Quote:

But again, if a Being was perfect, why would that imply totally passivity and lack of interest in doing anything? Why would one attribute necessitate the other? Seems an unwarranted assumption.

If a perfect being exists in a perfect state, any alteration of this state would make it less perfect, and since 'perfection' is an absolute and doesn't come in degrees, not perfect at all.
So either this being was imperfect before the creation and the act of creation brought about it's 'perfect state', or it was in a perfect state prior and lessened that state through the act of creation.

I am the Lord, and there is none else: there is no God besides me.
I am the First, and I am the Last, and besides me there is no God. (Isaiah 44: 5-6)

I am the Lord God, that maketh all things, that alone stretch out the heavens, that establish the earth. (Isaiah 44: 24)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end," says the Lord God. (Apocalypse 1: 8)

Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and of his greatness there is no end. (Psalm 144: 3)

Behold, O Lord, thou hast known all things, the last and those of old: thou hast formed me, and hast laid thy hand upon me.
Thy knowledge is become wonderful to me: it is high, and I cannot reach it. (Psalm 138: 5-6)

Whither may I go from thy spirit, or whither may I flee from thy face? (Psalm 138: 7)

For nothing shall be impossible with God. (Luke 1:37)

Be ye therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 6:48)


Pretty well seems to me there's adequate scriptural claim of omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, and perfection.......

. . . I am the Lord, and there is none else: there is no God besides me.
I am the First, and I am the Last, and besides me there is no God. (Isaiah 44: 5-6)

I am the Lord God, that maketh all things, that alone stretch out the heavens, that establish the earth. (Isaiah 44: 24)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end," says the Lord God. (Apocalypse 1: 8)

Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and of his greatness there is no end. (Psalm 144: 3)

Behold, O Lord, thou hast known all things, the last and those of old: thou hast formed me, and hast laid thy hand upon me.
Thy knowledge is become wonderful to me: it is high, and I cannot reach it. (Psalm 138: 5-6)

Whither may I go from thy spirit, or whither may I flee from thy face? (Psalm 138: 7)

For nothing shall be impossible with God. (Luke 1:37)

Be ye therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 6:48)

Pretty well seems to me there's adequate scriptural claim of omnipotence, omniscience, omniprresence, and perfection as to render reasonable the conclusion such are the attributes of the purported god.

Not ignoring a thing, neo, just taking what there is for what there is, taking what is said for what is meant,

neither applying special definitions

nor assuming convenient interpretations

just reading what is written in the scriptures - reading it objectively, critically, dispassionately, and with mere academic interest and rigor.

You bring to it whatever you wish, I take from it what I find there.