real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 08:42 pm
Farmerman wrote:
Do you understand and accept the evidence regarding Continental Drift?


As we have discussed previously, I have no major problem with the tectonic theory, though obviously you and I would differ greatly on the timeline of such an event.

(There are many who hold that Genesis refers to just such an event taking place. That part is an open question IMO , since the passage is rather vague, and short. It could have several different interpretations.)
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 08:51 pm
could you share that one ? Im not familiar with it.

But yes, we would differ a great deal on the time implications .You agree that, for it to occur in a time schedule like you speak, the speed of separation could be as high as 7 mi per year? and we are now measuring displacement speeds in the Atlantic around Iceland of about 2.5 cm per year
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Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 09:37 pm
farmerman wrote:
could you share that one ? Im not familiar with it.

But yes, we would differ a great deal on the time implications .You agree that, for it to occur in a time schedule like you speak, the speed of separation could be as high as 7 mi per year? and we are now measuring displacement speeds in the Atlantic around Iceland of about 2.5 cm per year


7 miles per year? Wouldn't that kind of frictional heating change water temperatures?
P
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 09:43 pm
not to mention making the perfect waves for surfing. Id open a job shop just reissuing marine charts. Id make a fortune
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 09:48 pm
real life wrote:
Your idea here is that small groups of animals that are found only in one (or a few) locations on Earth is somehow incompatible with the idea of God creating the world and all that is in it.

You wanna explain why?


Uh, because he doesn't believe in magic ?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 11:56 pm
farmerman wrote:
could you share that one ? Im not familiar with it.

But yes, we would differ a great deal on the time implications .You agree that, for it to occur in a time schedule like you speak, the speed of separation could be as high as 7 mi per year? and we are now measuring displacement speeds in the Atlantic around Iceland of about 2.5 cm per year


And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan. (Gen. 10:25)

It could be that the small amount of movement which we see now is just a remnant of the much faster movement of the plates in the past.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 06:42 am
that would be ok, except the patterns of slow plate movement are preserved in the "magnetic stripes" that correspond to theCurie point crystallization and orientation of Iron Silicate minerals of mid ocean magamas caught in the fields of normal and reversed magnetic polarity. The oldest ages in polarity we can see in the Atlantic basin are Jurassic. These we see from the incorporated sediments at ocean margins.

Thanks for that Biblical reference, it does clearly say that Earth divided. That is amazing. Is there no danger that these words were rescribed by some eager screebus who was entering column notes or trying to embellish a story? Is there any scholarship on this subject? Its very interesting.
Ive concentrated on the sequence of lifes appearances in Genesis and use this as a teaching tool in advanced strat. Its basically a defense of how the Biblical sequence compares to our geological and geochemical basis of evidence.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 07:35 am
neologist wrote:
You Meanie!


Thank you, thank you folks . . . you've been wonderful . . . i'll be here all week . . . don't forget to tip your waiters and waitresses . . .
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 07:56 am
farmerman wrote:
I like that term and, sometimes too much knowledge is bad for ones faith, since knowledge demands more and deeper truths and closer inspection of evidence.


Prior to the proliferation of moveable type in Europe, there were rarely copies of the bobble in the vernacular--examples such as Wycliffe's translation show the extremes to which the church would go to prevent canonical scriture from becoming the property of the laity.

Since the Protestant Reformation, the Prods have had only a slightly different take. You can't put the genie back in the bottle, so the trend among Prod extremists has always been to eschew any knowledge which cannot be directly extracted from the bobble, or a very, very few other books--such as Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. I have often had conversations with evangelical christians who assert that learning is a bad thing. Whether those individuals know it or not, the reason is precisely that which you have described--the possiblity of the pollution of one's devotion to a narrow canonical scripture, which is to be accepted uncritically in the form in which those guarding orthodoxy present it. Many, many years ago (late 1960's) when i began to read about Saul of Tarsus, Origen, Pamphilus and Eusebius--it became clear that the canonical text of the "New Testament" is not reliably the product of eyewitness testimony, and is not even reliably directly descended from whatever form those documents took when first written. Today, there is a world-wide evangelical movement to translate the bible known as the Wycliffe Bible Translators. I don't know that John Wycliffe would be flattered by the use of his name--but it is very likely that such an effort intends to refine orthodoxy and establish it through a "refined" canon. Nearly all attempts at biblical translation have been efforts to "perfect" canonical scripture, and none have been done without a motive to correct errors--the King James version (formally known in England then and since as "the Authorized Version") being one of the most well-known "corrected" versions (very much influenced by Calvin's Institutes and the Calvin-Zwingli translation--despite James' instructions and committees).

It is rather hilarious, though, because religious orthodoxy relies upon a contention of the inerrant character of canonical scripture. The concept of correcting a canonical scripture sails too close to the concept of error in the previously held orthodoxy--and religious authority is never comfortable with that. In the case of King James, quite the religious scholar when he could tear himself away from his boyfriend's embrace, he asserted the "Bishop's Bible" then in use in England was unsatisfactory, and that it should be compared with Greek and Hebrew texts, and other English language versions (Wycliffe's tranlation was completed c. 1380).

I find the consideration of canonical scripture--anyone's--to be very ironic. Science thrives because of a willingness to admit and correct error. Adherents of religious canons cannot admit error, because of the assertion that their scripture is god's word and therefore inerrant. When it has, from time to time, been necessary to review the text of canonical scripture, and make "corrections," orthodox authorities have either proceeded in secret, or have been obliged to do quite a song and dance to explain how the canon can be god's word and inerrant, but still require correction.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 09:03 am
I always got a kick over the "Stand alone" nature of the Gospels . Ive just read "Misquoting Jesus" and how the Gospels of Mark and Luke handle the crucufixion in such a vastly different way. (Mark has Jesus totally shocked and fearful in his crucifixion, whereas Luke shows a transcendant Christ, calm and "in the loop" with his entire crucifixion.
My last two classes of advanced stratigraphy were brutal in assembling evidence in contradicting Genesis.

Set, your point about the willingness of science to modify and rethink conclusions is one of the very things that Creationists accuse us of NOT doing. I always get a kick over that.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 09:23 am
My all time favorite is the contention that Augustus ordered a census, and that everyone was required to return to the place of their birth to comply with the census. It ignores that the Censors only conducted such counts to determine the number of eligible voters. As only Roman citizens (less than 10% of the population of the empire at the time of the greatest extent of the franchise, and far lower in the reign of Augustus) had the franchise, this meant that the Censors only counted citizens--they certainly did not count Palestinian carpenters who had fooishly gotten some teen-aged girl knocked up. There is absolutely no historical basis for claiming that a census was conducted in the empire at that time, let alone that it intended to count anyone not a Roman citizen.

More hilarious still, though, is the contention that people were required to return to the place of their birth. That implies that Roman officials were somehow incapable of counting someone who was not resident at their place of birth. More foolish than that, however, is the consideration of the logistical nightmare invovled if even only Roman citizens has been required to return to the place of their birth.

The bobble, in both old and new and improved versions, is rife with historical and geographical absurdities, let alone the "strange science" entailed in all the silliness.
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 10:55 am
Farmerman, how much research have you done concerning the correlation of Geology with the Bible?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 11:49 am
Why would anybody waste time trying to compare any science with the fictional comic book the bible?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 12:00 pm
Setanta wrote:
. . . Adherents of religious canons cannot admit error, because of the assertion that their scripture is god's word and therefore inerrant. When it has, from time to time, been necessary to review the text of canonical scripture, and make "corrections," orthodox authorities have either proceeded in secret, or have been obliged to do quite a song and dance to explain how the canon can be god's word and inerrant, but still require correction.
Though there are some who realize their understanding is incomplete and may 'evolve'. (I love that word.) After all, those who wrote the bible often said they did not understand what they were writing.

Not that you aren't also correct, boss. :wink:
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 12:01 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Why would anybody waste time trying to compare any science with the fictional comic book the bible?
Exactly what I said about phrenology. Laughing

BTW, where's xingu when you need him?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 04:11 pm
Ive mentioned the order of Genesis being an attempt at sequence abd series . I had a series of sessions onmyth and geology , in which we took items like
Scylla and Charibdis
genesis
flood myths
and we compared them to what we know about some of these areas of the planet.

Ive been trying to get some interest going in MS candidate choosing some applied topics for their theses and Ive introduced a number of strawman arguments and "whatifs". I find that kids today dont think very creatively but by brute bytes of information. My science is quite an intuitive applied endeavor. Ive asked students to think "new ways" of accomplishing something. Literarture and art proviides a way to engage some other sides of the head
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 09:10 pm
Setanta wrote:
My all time favorite is the contention that Augustus ordered a census, and that everyone was required to return to the place of their birth to comply with the census. It ignores that the Censors only conducted such counts to determine the number of eligible voters. As only Roman citizens (less than 10% of the population of the empire at the time of the greatest extent of the franchise, and far lower in the reign of Augustus) had the franchise, this meant that the Censors only counted citizens--they certainly did not count Palestinian carpenters who had fooishly gotten some teen-aged girl knocked up. There is absolutely no historical basis for claiming that a census was conducted in the empire at that time, let alone that it intended to count anyone not a Roman citizen.

More hilarious still, though, is the contention that people were required to return to the place of their birth. That implies that Roman officials were somehow incapable of counting someone who was not resident at their place of birth. More foolish than that, however, is the consideration of the logistical nightmare invovled if even only Roman citizens has been required to return to the place of their birth.

The bobble, in both old and new and improved versions, is rife with historical and geographical absurdities, let alone the "strange science" entailed in all the silliness.


It is possible that what this refers to is a registering of all Jews, not of all Romans.

The Jews were, by this time, already seen as quite unruly and somewhat "out of control" and it would not be strange at all if Rome, in order to show that Judea was firmly under Roman rule, ordered an intentional disruption in Jewish society. Sort of a "we know who you are and where you live" move to intimidate the ungovernable province.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 09:14 pm
farmerman wrote:
...... Ive just read "Misquoting Jesus" and how the Gospels of Mark and Luke handle the crucufixion in such a vastly different way. (Mark has Jesus totally shocked and fearful in his crucifixion, whereas Luke shows a transcendant Christ, calm and "in the loop" with his entire crucifixion...........


Exactly what are you referring to when you say shocked and fearful? I don't think there's anything quite like that in Mark.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 09:24 pm
farmerman wrote:


Thanks for that Biblical reference, it does clearly say that Earth divided. That is amazing. Is there no danger that these words were rescribed by some eager screebus who was entering column notes or trying to embellish a story? Is there any scholarship on this subject? Its very interesting.


I haven't seen anything that addresses it in much detail. It is such a short reference, so there's not a lot to go on. It is repeated in another place, but with no additional detail.

Apparently the name 'Peleg' and the word 'divided' in the verse come from the same root word.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 10:05 pm
real life wrote:
It is possible that what this refers to is a registering of all Jews, not of all Romans.

The Jews were, by this time, already seen as quite unruly and somewhat "out of control" and it would not be strange at all if Rome, in order to show that Judea was firmly under Roman rule, ordered an intentional disruption in Jewish society. Sort of a "we know who you are and where you live" move to intimidate the ungovernable province.


There is a distinction to be made between idle speculation and historical research. If you can come up with a reliable reference, you might make a case. Otherwise, you're stuck with the currently held point of view that the Censors only ever counted Roman citizens. They had little reason to count anyone else, because their hearth tax was not a capitation, and they were uninterested in the number of any population. I cannot stay online right now, but i'll be back later to dispose of this most recent example of your nonsensical reach to any extent to justify the inerrancy of scripture.
0 Replies
 
 

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