yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 12:17 am
timber, for the sake of argument, if we concede that the OT is not original, would that constitute plagiarism? can a myth be stolen, as talk72000 contends?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 12:35 am
Dunno as I'd say plagiarized. Its an amalgam of traditions originating with many different cultures of greater antiquity than the Abrahamic tradition - a product of its time and place. Its roots extend into Sumer, Mesopotamia, Anatolia, Persia, and Egypt, many reaching back millenia before Genesis was composed.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 08:56 am
timber, while the OT might be the best-known or most-studied example of amalgamation, the phenomenon itself is shared by many religious traditions besides the Judaeo-Christian, wouldn't you say? if memory serves, Roman mythology had extensive amalgamation, and Shiva was a Dravidian deity that preceded Hinduism as we know it, to give 2 examples.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 10:16 am
Certainly I agree ... religions steal from one another all the time ... its their nature. What they choose to take is divine, what they leave behind is mere heathen superstition. That's the way it works.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 10:20 am
To say that the OT is 'plagiarized' or a 'compilation of traditions' is a bit off the mark, to say the least.

Adam and Eve had knowledge of the One True God from the beginning. That knowledge was passed on to their descendants. Sometimes it was ignored and sometimes not.

By the time of Noah, few were following the God that had walked with Adam ( and Enoch, etc ).

God judged the world, leaving Noah and his family to start over with the knowledge of the One God who had created all, and was Judge of all.

Again, Noah's descendants sometimes listened and obeyed the teaching that was handed down to them, sometimes not. Their families and the nations that developed from them carried with them some of this knowledge, some of it was lost, ignored or corrupted into vaguely similar but not identical forms.

Abraham did listen and God revealed Himself further based on Abraham's faith and faithfulness. This knowledge was passed on to Abraham's descendants, one of whom (Joseph) ruled Egypt under Pharaoh.

Hundreds of years later, Moses would put this history and the principles into writing in the Pentateuch.

So when we say that monotheism and other ideas that are in the Bible were actually around long before Bible was put into written form ---DOH! This knowledge was with Mankind from the Beginning.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 10:36 am
real life wrote:
To say that the OT is 'plagiarized' or a 'compilation of traditions' is a bit off the mark, to say the least.

Adam and Eve had knowledge of the One True God from the beginning. That knowledge was passed on to their descendants. Sometimes it was ignored and sometimes not.

By the time of Noah, few were following the God that had walked with Adam ( and Enoch, etc ).

God judged the world, leaving Noah and his family to start over with the knowledge of the One God who had created all, and was Judge of all.

Again, Noah's descendants sometimes listened and obeyed the teaching that was handed down to them, sometimes not. Their families and the nations that developed from them carried with them some of this knowledge, some of it was lost, ignored or corrupted into vaguely similar but not identical forms.

Abraham did listen and God revealed Himself further based on Abraham's faith and faithfulness. This knowledge was passed on to Abraham's descendants, one of whom (Joseph) ruled Egypt under Pharaoh.

Hundreds of years later, Moses would put this history and the principles into writing in the Pentateuch.

So when we say that monotheism and other ideas that are in the Bible were actually around long before Bible was put into written form ---DOH! This knowledge was with Mankind from the Beginning.
Yeah, what you said.

Would you expect OT writers to ignore the pagan religions? Hebrews were warned not to follow them, yet they often did. All this was recounted in the bible.

So what?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 12:26 pm
It is so ludicrous to make contentions about what "Noah's children" did or did not do. The flood stories is one of the most embarrassingly obvious of the bobble's examples of plagiarism . . .
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 12:28 pm
It is quite entertaining, though, to see such clear evidence that "real life" is an adherent to the principle of "revealed truth," of the bobble being a literal, historically accurate account--given the hundreds of pages in which he danced for all he was worth to avoid such a statement when the dicussion specifically focused on the issue of evolution and the cause of the diversity of life on this planet.

Got any circumstantial evidence for us yet, "real life?"
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 04:40 pm
Hi Setanta,

I've made no secret of my belief in the Bible including belief that God created the universe, the Earth, and all that is in it from my very first day in this forum. I've discussed it repeatedly.

But it has been interesting watching you act as though I had not discussed it.

I've cited several specific instances of evidence that supports creation and undermines the evolutionary hypotheses.

Since you have not been able to respond specifically to any of these, I'm wondering what good additional examples would do for you?

Again, it has been interesting also to watch you act as though you had not seen these examples. But you have seen them.

Why don't you specifically respond to the ones already cited?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 04:43 pm
"I've cited several specific instances of evidence that supports creation and undermines the evolutionary hypotheses."

All of your evidence have been rebutted with better and more convincing evidence.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 04:49 pm
real life wrote:
"I've cited several specific instances of evidence that supports creation and undermines the evolutionary hypotheses."


Why is it that I always seem to miss this supposd evidence for Creationism that you supposedly give? Now I have to trawl my way back through all 600 pages to search for said evidence and God help you if I find out that your evidence is actually non-evidence.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 04:54 pm
rl wrote:
I've cited several specific instances of evidence that supports creation and undermines the evolutionary hypotheses.

I submit no such circumstance obtains. What has been presented in such wise consists of misapprehension, mischaracterization, outright fabrication, and/or some combination thereof.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 05:03 pm
real life wrote:
Basically what FM said.

Evolutionists postulate the Earth to be 5-6 billion years old. A recalculated age of even half that would probably be devastating to the evolutionary theory, since it supposedly took 3/4 of a billion years just to get from Earth's beginning to the first living organism.

So if data from the magnetic field indicates that the Earth's age is more likely measured in millions or even 1-3 billion, that would spell serious trouble for the evolutionary hypothesis, I think most would agree.


The last piece of anything that can be taken as a credible argument against evolution is your above post.

May I point out to you that there are research projects out there that are actually revealing the age of the Earth to be older than we first anticipated. All new scientific evidence I have seen so far that contradicts the currently believed age of the Earth does so only by adding to it, never taking away or halving it.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 05:08 pm
It might do well here to point out there are several dozen methodologies of radiometric dating - and that data derived therefrom is independently cross-corroborating to a statistically astounding degree. The evidence may not be discounted by any save those who choose to ignore it.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 05:17 pm
yawn, Im not gonna cruise back through the 10 or so pages Ive missed but why does real life, in Wolf's quote attribute that boxed statement to me??
I said nothing of the sort, in fact my comment to real life was the word "IF" is the main structure of his thesis.

There are probably at least 14! methods of radioactive decay methods, and new ones are developed yearly.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 05:24 pm
Probably more like 140 pages, y'old geezer. Welcome back farmer! I do enjoy your posts.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 05:45 pm
farmerman wrote:
yawn, Im not gonna cruise back through the 10 or so pages Ive missed but why does real life, in Wolf's quote attribute that boxed statement to me??
I said nothing of the sort, in fact my comment to real life was the word "IF" is the main structure of his thesis.

There are probably at least 14! methods of radioactive decay methods, and new ones are developed yearly.


Erm, I don't know how that happened but there was supposed to be a bit of what you actually said before "Basically what FM said." You actually replied to that particular post by RL immediately after, if that helps.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 05:48 pm
Golly, I made a big misteak,that 14! , should be recalled is (factorial) 14 and thats over 41 million. That seems a bit high. Maybe I should recant that and say 9! because many of the fast living isotopes dont have a chance to hang around and be counted in a convenient fashion

Wolf-Oh I see.

So that means that real life is still preaching the gospels of "weird science"??
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 05:55 pm
Hi Farmerman,

The last post I had addressed to you was a few days ago (then the thread took somewhat of a detour for a while). It went something like this:

farmerman wrote:
real life, basically the USGS geomag program just agreed with me. Youre initial post was that a "continuous" field intensity decrease was consistant with a "young earth" , lets not forget that. I stated that the field intensity isnt decaying, in fact, it varies and has been realtively flat since 1935.

Humphries is making a statement that "if this is what really happened , we would recognize a loss in total field strength by half every 1500 years. Even he is trying to obviate any reasonable discussion about a meaning of field strength. He does admit (through very vague language) that these "young earth douches" are guilty ofmaking long term projections from minimal synoptic data. Humphries is famous as the master of the bleedin obvious.
We see that the total field varies all over the map and he earth has had as many as 10 different "poles" at the same time. If Humphries was honest , he would record the fact that an incidental "tripole" has been recently asserting itself
Quote:
don't exactly sound adamant that a continual decrease is not still taking place. It simply offers speculation that it may (or may not) reverse.
Obviously then your reading skills need some serious attention. The USGS wording is clear and unambiguous. Humphries, on the other hand demonstrates his "after work" hobby of obfuscating science to fit his religious beliefs.


Hi Farmerman,

I want to be very specific on your position on this, if you do not mind.

Are you saying outright that Dr Humphries statement

Dr Humphries wrote:
Using ambiguous 1967 data, ..... energy gains in minor ("non-dipole") parts (seemed to) compensate for the energy loss from the main ("dipole") part. Using data from the International Geomagnetic Reference Field (IGRF)... from 1970 to 2000, the dipole part of the field steadily lost 235 ± 5 billion megajoules of energy, while the non-dipole part gained only 129 ± 8 billion megajoules. Over that 30-year period, the net loss of energy from all observable parts of the field was 1.41 ± 0.16 %. At that rate, the field would lose half its energy every 1465 ± 166 years.


is a misstatement of the evidence?

Can you specifically tell us why , if you believe it to be so?

Quoting the IGRF data, he states that

Quote:
from 1970 to 2000, the dipole part of the field steadily lost 235 ± 5 billion megajoules of energy


Are you saying this is not an accurate number?

Again quoting the IGRF data he states that

Quote:
from 1970 to 2000.....the non-dipole part gained only 129 ± 8 billion megajoules


Are you saying this is not an accurate number?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 06:55 pm
Re your Dr Humphries boat, rl - addressed and blown out of the water Here
0 Replies
 
 

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