Evolution? How?

Again I am not preaching. If I was I would not pay any mind what your opinions are.

You can rather than just standing back and trying to classify what I write but find a way to drive a wedge in somewhere and see if it can be cracked. Can it withstand scrutiny?

It is rather an opinion. I consider it to be a well educated opinion. I have a rather well rounded education and I even consider myself a moderate which means many of my friends do not even profess to be Christian.

But this is my own belief. I have no problem expressing it just as you probably have no problem expressing yours...


Neo

That question needs it's own thread... hehe

Free will can result in perfection...

Timber

I have a style...

Sometimes I will come into a thread... I will read everything and write down key things and then reply to each reply that I have a gripe with...

Sometimes I will take concepts that are tossed up into the discussion. I will see where people are fetched up and I will make note of them.

When the latter happens I will instead of replying to each and every post I will mull over the things that have been said. In direct response I will somehow draw upon experience and then I will see a certain perspective of the basic constituents of my faith. Faith is such a subjective and conceptual thing.

For example, if everyone (in the thread) is arguing over if the OT God is seemingly a barbarian..

I might quote from the NT and say, "God is light and in him is no darkness at all"...

It seems people want to believe what they choose.

BUT, I know you are all quoting an old testament when the world was blind and unable to see this "guide". They were entrapped by a legal system that had been supposedly delivered from "God" and they were prisoners of it.

I guess I just see more of the whole picture...

Some people let religion create their God... I did for a while.

I use mostly the Epistles of Paul the Apostle to steer me in the direction of the truth of the spirit. If one studies them (with meekness) the biblical picture becomes clear.

Yet, there are certain gems plentifully scattered throughout the word of God... All seen through the epistle light.

Not to ruffle your feathers, Rex, but denying what you are doing does not change what you are doing, and what you are doing is not arguing, analyzing, critiquing, nor even discussing; is but but preaching, proselytizing, parroting, hypothecating, and conjecturing.

I submit I do not "stand back and try to classify" what you write, buit rather that I point out the errors of fact, logic, and foundation embodied within what you have written. There is no need for myself or anyone else to "drive a wedge" or "try to crack" the substance of what you have written; I submit that what you have written stands scrutiny only in the light of its own central proposition. I submit that internal reference and circular reasoning are validation of nothing. In a play on concept here, I suppose it might be said your postings heretofore succeed in one respect; they validate nothing.

I accept without question your declaration "But this is my own belief.", there can be no argument it is anything other than that. Hoever, I do not accept your assertion that you " ... have no problem expressing it...", for were that to be the case, your manner of presenting and defending the proposition you forward would not come under the criticism it has. The manner of argument you have been employing may work when preaching to the choir, but this ain't the choir.

What would you as an impartial observer, say to a universe containing sentient beings, none having free will?

You might call it perfect because nothing could go wrong.

I know what I would say:

B O R I N G!

Ever play pool?
Ever look at the cue ball?
Under a microscope?
Do you go ahead and play the game?
Or do you summarily refuse to play because the ball does not meet your exacting standard of perfection?

Nothing that happened in Eden cannot be undone by God. Of course, those who willfully resisted will not be permitted to repeat their rebellion. But God has promised a resurrection to those who never knew him so they may experience the life which Adam lost. (John 5:28,29)

Remember his name: "He who causes to become"
The attribute of his will: "I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be."
His promise: ". . .so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it." (Isaiah 55:11)

Of course, you don't have to believe the bible; but that is what it says.

Wow, it is amazing how you can say so little with so many words with no clear reference to anything central that I have said.

And I might add that, I am differing in my opinion than most. I am not here to win a popularity contest. Politics and popularity go hand in hand. I prefer to keep my religion free of this vanity.

When I post my "opinions" If I should happen to mention something that rings a bell it is because I intended to touch on that subject.

I think your problem is that what I say does not agree with your "opinion". Well that is why we are here. So we can see other peoples ideas and compare these things.

But if you are feeling threatened because my ideas shatter your own then you might reexamine the foundations that you have built your "opinions" upon.

I have already accepted that you may not agree with me. But, if you have a problem with my opinion, I find it odd that you are the only one afflicted with intolerance...

If Rex won't, I will. Try Proverbs chapter 8, particularly vs. 22. The person speaking here later came to earth as Jesus.

I have no problem with your having an opinion Rex, I merely point out you do not present the proposition you forward in forensically valid manner. I have no problem with that, either, nor am I at all dismayed or in anyway froghtened or threatened by anything you have presented; ghosts, boogiemen, spirits, magic, superstions, and imaginary freinds simply are not factors in my worldview apart from the entertainment provided by the mythology surrounding same. I find it all rather amusing, in fact, and pursue this line of discussion purely for the entertainment value.

It is fun.

BTW, timber, I am having chicken for dinner tonite. No relation, I hope.

neo, Just make sure it's not infected with avian flu. Enjoy!

Kak! Kak! Kakkle!

A co-inky-dink ... had chicken for dinner here tonight, too.

Speaking of amusement, got some going on here right now. Some may get a kick outta this. I'm a member of my local town board, and I do some fill-in work for the township - truckdriver, equipment operator, that sorta stuff. Nothing regular or full time, just once-in-a-while, as needed, more or less. Anyhow, I just got an amusing phonecall. The kid the town board hired to drive the township snowplow this winter - the town chairman's nephew, BTW, has been out "practising and getting the feel for the rig" before we get hit with any really significant weather. Good plan. Anyhow, the kid just called me on his cellphone, from the cab of the township snowplow, which is stuck right up to its axles a few feet out onto the almost-suitably-frozen surface of a small lake that is the reason for the parking area used as a turnaround on one leg of the normal snowplow patrol route. I'm gonna drive down to the town garage, get the big towtruck, and earn myself a little blackmail fodder from the kid, who's real concerned about getting into trouble for his little miscalculation - I won't tell anybody if ....

But wait - this gets even better. Mrs Timber's car is in the shop overnight tonight for some routine stuff, so she has my Blazer. My pickup hasn't been started in a good long while, and what with it being pretty durned cold out there, I discovered it isn't inclined to do so right now. I've thrown the battery charger onto it, and it'll fire up fine in 15 minutes or so. When I get to the town garage, I'll just throw it on the charger there, no problem, no biggie. I called the kid back, explained the new development, let him know there would be a bit of delay, and assured him I'd get there soon as I could. I resisted the urge to tell him not to go anywhere

Not a perfect world;, but fun, nevertheless. Be warm and well fed, timber.

Neo,
Are you warning, me accusing me, educating me, or humoring me? What did I say?

Something about someone making you want to puke. . . (not to mention your post immediately before that one) Check out what the link has to say about argumentum ad hominem, for openers.

Evolution, how?

Is not the better question, Evolution, why?

We may know many aspects of how but will we ever know why?

The word why can sometime be interchanged with the word how... but it is often the case that many people are able to operate as human beings but they are oblivious as to the purpose of their lives.

Science may understand the how of existence but will they ever know the why?

Science is just observers often oblivious to themselves being observed by God. That God is all seeing and they mimic and seek after God's own nature but never connecting to the source. Happier with the art rather than the artist.

What does your article say about standing for truth and belittling good people for saying what is truth?

What if I really did feel like I had to puke?

Sometimes I get dizzy reading in circles the way timber writes and sometimes I get neauseous reading your roller coaster of thoughts. Although I have noticed the two of you rather enjoy your topsy-turvy communications.
.........................................................................
I know this guy who says he likes to talk.
.........................................................................
I knew a shrink once who thought it was wrong to show emotion.

Com'on, Are you guys for real, I am here defending my Lord. The things timber writes shock me, and offend me.

Yes, it makes me want to puke.

n-dc, Go ahead and puke.

non-denom christian,

I feel the need to jump in here. I am 100% in support of you defending our Lord. I have tried and tried to get posters on these threads to understand how offensive their posts can be. But, alas, to no avail.

I was told that religious discrimination is okay because your religion is a choice and not something you just have because of race, etc.

I still believe they are wrong and I will always believe it is wrong for them to do what they do. I wish I could give you more encouraging news and tell you that they understand and will respect your right to your views and not belittle you because of those beliefs, but I can't. It seems they will do it no matter what.

Just be assured, there are others out here who believe and understand your despair at hearing our Lord spoken of in such a manner.

Ahhhh, I had to go to bed.

Now that Igot everything stirred up here is the kicker on Isaiah 12:14

Tanakh

Isaiah 14:
12 How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of the Morning!
How art thou cut down to the ground,

Isaiah 14:
12 How are you fallen from heaven,
O Shining One, son of the Dawn!
How are you felled to earth,
Isaiah 14:12 (KJV with Hebrew)
"How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Helel, son of Shahar!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!"


Remeber, Helel was the morning star, and his father Shahar was god of the dawn.

"How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn [i.e., Helal, son of the god Shahar]!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
You said in your heart,
`I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of El; I will sit on the Mount of Assembly on the heights of Zaphon [the sacred mountain of El where the Assembly of the Gods met in council].
But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit" (Isaiah 14:12-15).

In his fallen state, Helal was known as Azazel, the earth-bound demon to whom the Israelites gave as a yearly sacrifice on the Day of Atonement a "scapegoat" that was sent into the wilderness for Azazel after another goat had been sacrificed before the mercy seat of Yahweh:

"[Aaron] shall take from the congregation of the people of Israel two male goats for a sin offering . . . and Aaron shall cast lots on the two goats, one lot for Yahweh and the other lot for Azazel. Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for Yahweh, and offer it as a sin offering; but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before Yahweh to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel" (Leviticus 16:5,7-10).

Shachar 'Dawn'
Shalim's twin twin and one of the first, if not only, pair of gracious gods, the children and cleavers of the sea. They were born of El and Athirat or her female companion. The new family builds a sanctuary in the desert and lives there for eight years. According to Isaiah 14:12, he is the father of Helel or Lucifer, the 'light-bringer', usually taken to mean the morning-star.
HELEL: Erroneously identified with Satan and Lucifer. The Light Bringer, the Morning Star. Son of Shachar. Helel once attempted to take the Throne of the Supreme "God", but failed (another myth concerning Venus's place as the last star in the sky each morning, as if trying to defy the Sun). This is the very Myth which spawned the Christian Myth of the War in Heaven (see -ISAIAH 14: 12, which in Hebrew, says "Helel", and not "Lucifer").
SHACHAR: "Dawn". "God" of dawn. Either a son of Asherah, or of Rohmaya. According to -ISAIAH 14: 12, He is the father of Helel (who has been erroneously identified with Satan and Lucifer) the Light-Bringer and Morning Star.



Saphon, the sacred mountain of El.
Mt. Saphon, also known as Mt. Casius, is located just north of Ugarit, a Canaanite city located in northern Palestine during the 13th and 14th centuries BCE about half a mile inland near the tip of Cyprus.

Baal (also called Baal-Zephon(Saphon), Hadad, Pidar and Rapiu (Rapha?) - 'the shade')
The son of El, the god of fertility, 'rider of the clouds', and god of lightning and thunder. He is 'the Prince, the lord of earth', 'the mightiest of warriors', 'lord of the sky and the earth' (Alalakh). He has a palace on Mt. Zephon. He has a feud with Yam. His voice is thunder, his ship is a snow bearing cloud. He is known as Rapiu during his summer stay in the underworld.
Mt. Zephon
Either the mountain is deified and holy, godlike in proportion, or El has a pavilion there. It has recesses within which Baal holds his feast. Baal had his first house of cedar and brick there, as well as his second house of gold, silver, and lapis-lazuli.
YHWH AL: 'YHWH' was simply part of the Canaanite pantheon. He was a Son of 'AL' ("El"); and he was part of the court of 'AL' ("El") as cupbearer along with Baal. Later, as the National "God" of 'YSHRAL' (Israel), 'YHWH' was equated with 'AL' ("El"), and Asherah became His wife.

Semitic Polytheistic Religion

What are Canaanite gods Helel (Day Star)and Shahar (Dawn) doing in a Jewish Torah?
What is Zaphon, a mountain inSyria doing in a the Jewish Torah?

Obviously the Isaiah 14:12 text were copied from the original polytheistic common Canaanite religion.

The Bible is unreliable and bunk.