real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 09:37 pm
Questioner wrote:
......... Faith is something that you believe in without proof or evidence. Proof is something that is studied, solidly evident, and visually apparent. It is the complete contrast to what faith is.........


A pretty narrow definition of faith, and of proof.

You might want to consider how different scientific proof and historical proof are, for instance.

We have no 'proof' that George Washington lived, if you are using the word in the same sense you invoked it. He is not visually apparent, you cannot study him, etc.

What proofs do we have of Washington? Several. We have the eyewitness accounts of those who knew him. We also see the affects of his life still evident, i.e. the US government which he helped to found is still existing today.

Faith is not necessarily something you believe without evidence. Merriam Webster lists several definitions of faith. Also some synonyms, one of which is belief. One of the definitions listed for belief is
Quote:
conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 09:45 pm
But that "examination of evidence" is very subjective to the individual when defining "faith."
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 10:00 pm
farmerman wrote:
......... Im usually quite patient. I enjoy discussions with Real Life, because he starts with a premise of discounting evidence. .........


Hi Farmerman,

Patient you are, as I will gladly attest. I have to say I enjoy talking with you also.

However, I don't see my position as one of discounting evidence (at least I try not to do so) .

I am very skeptical, by nature, however. The way I see it, evidence is simply the facts, the data. Very often though, evidence can be interpreted a number of different ways.

Also as we had discussed previously, large quantities of evidence that are cited by both evolutionists and creationists are found to be circumstantial evidence (fossils, for instance, that were left behind in the aftermath of the event), not direct evidence (such as observation of the event itself taking place).

A problem, as I see it, is that if science approaches all evidence with an assumption of evolution, for instance (' Since Evolution is true, how does this evidence fit into the theory? ' ) , then aren't interpretations of evidence almost certainly bound to be bent to try to go along with the status quo and no other interpretations likely to be even considered? This seems to be a very limiting approach, at best; and devolves into circular argumentation at the end.

If you find me discounting evidence, by all means feel free to call me on it. But if I dissent concerning the interpretation of the evidence, or question the assumption that underlies an interpretation.......well, to me, asking uncomfortable questions is often just part of the process.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 10:07 pm
Intrepid wrote:
How dreary would be the world if there were no God to praise. It would be as dreary as if there were no Franks. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The external light with which love fills the world would be extinguished.


I've heard this type of stuff before and it just amazes me.

Maybe your entire existence revolves around praising something, and you need it there just to get any pleasure out of being alive, but that's not for me.

I suppose I can't speak for all the agnostics in the world, but I know from my own experience that the things you say simply aren't true.

"How dreary would be the world if there were no God to praise....", give me a break. How dreary would be the world if you were right: Now *that* would be dreary.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 10:18 pm
This world's been praising the bible god for two thousand years, and what has it accomplished?

More death and mayhem.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 10:55 pm
Intrepid,

I'm not sure about you because I don't know you personally, but I am positive I have not caused any death or mayhem because I praise the Lord.

And my life has been anything but dreary! LOL
0 Replies
 
shiyacic aleksandar
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 02:36 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
This world's been praising the bible god for two thousand years, and what has it accomplished?

More death and mayhem.


It is due to fanatic idealism of Men and not because of God or any sacred scripture...
Christianism,Islamism,Marxism,Capitalism all "isms" when practiced with selfishness,possessivness,greed,envy,anger,pretention are indeed very destructive for the world of men.
It is at the same time a good lesson of the past for humans and basically support all present and future comprehension and administration (religeous,scientific,politic and economic) of life in communityand society on this globe which we call the Earth.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 04:17 am
rosborne979 wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
How dreary would be the world if there were no God to praise. It would be as dreary as if there were no Franks. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The external light with which love fills the world would be extinguished.


I've heard this type of stuff before and it just amazes me.

Maybe your entire existence revolves around praising something, and you need it there just to get any pleasure out of being alive, but that's not for me.

I suppose I can't speak for all the agnostics in the world, but I know from my own experience that the things you say simply aren't true.

"How dreary would be the world if there were no God to praise....", give me a break. How dreary would be the world if you were right: Now *that* would be dreary.


If that is not for you...that is fine. Nobody is trying to force anything on you or make you think differently than you do. Opinions are given and can be accepted or rejected.

If you are happy in your world, I wish you peace.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 04:17 am
Momma Angel wrote:
Intrepid,

I'm not sure about you because I don't know you personally, but I am positive I have not caused any death or mayhem because I praise the Lord.

And my life has been anything but dreary! LOL


Amen
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 04:37 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
But that "examination of evidence" is very subjective to the individual when defining "faith."


I thinkyou are confusing belief and faith.

Belief:
· Something believed
· Conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence.

Faith:
· Firm belief in something for which there is no proof

By definition then, a belief can be true. I believe in the law of gravity. I know it to be true, I see evidence that it exists, therefore, I believe that it is true.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 04:39 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
This world's been praising the bible god for two thousand years, and what has it accomplished?

More death and mayhem.


By your statement, it appears that there was no death and mayhem prior to two thousand years ago. You have also omitted several other religions outside of Christians. Do you expect to be taken seriously?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 04:50 am
real life said
Quote:
A problem, as I see it, is that if science approaches all evidence with an assumption of evolution, for instance (' Since Evolution is true, how does this evidence fit into the theory? ' ) , then aren't interpretations of evidence almost certainly bound to be bent to try to go along with the status quo and no other interpretations likely to be even considered
. Im sorry that you see it that way but when a group of fossils (just for an eg) are found we usually establish 3 things:
1A Linnean morphology (Is the fossil clearly identifiable within a certain group?) In that respect, we usually teqr the sucker apart to see whether anything deviates from a "bauplan"

2Stratigraphic context-What is the age in which the fossil's stratigraphy suggests? This often leads to all sorts of fancy chemistry, physics and correlation with nearby stratigraphy

3-Environmental contex-What sort of death assemblage is represented. Did the animal die of thirst, hunger, slipped n a hill of mud etc etc.

Sometimes the evidence just fits very tightly. Often the Evolutionary significance of many fossils are toosed out because the fossils are found to be contemporaneous with their supposed ancestors and this always presents a problem. We never hide the fact (The fossil hunters sometimes try to fake things to assist their specimen negotiation discussions but we leave them behind with all the "fossil fakers " out there). As I said, we never hide the fact that a fossil doesnt fit within a smooth sequence of intermediaries. Right now the very argument whether birds arose from dromeiosaurs or whether dinosaurs and birds both rose from an earlier common ancestor is being slowly revealed . Nobody took an evolutionistic turn in the fossil revelations in this controversy. In fact, quite the opposite, a number of scientists began preaching a version of punctuated equilibrium (which to me fits nicely in a spasmodic "Creationist" argument).

If only the Creationists would actually go out in the field and do something to advance their arguments, it would actually be a lot more fun to test their hypotheses against hard evidence that (usually grad students) are finding.


As far as the Circumstantial evidence accusation, "Guilty as charged", but as I said before, hunting and piecing together fossil stories is a forensic exercise. Itsno different than hunting down a crime via evidence. We can place a fossil at a point in time, in a certain environmetal setting and its of a certain species. Instead of a murderer we have an explanation that , places a suspect in a fence of evidence that is given a "best fit" test.

If I were to adopt your wish that we give an honest consideration to either Creationist or Intelligent Design hypotheses, then Ive got too many fossils here. The story of Creationism and its "sudden appearance fully formed" gets a bit lame because all these "sudden" appearances of genera occur through spans of time and are connected to precursor forms that display minor "model changes" as deep time progresses, and all this occurs by means that cannot support a Global Flood. We have dinosaurs and mammals that were killed by falling into sand traps or falling off high slopes on land(In fact, almost all dinosaur fossils, with the exception of the Mosasaurs and Pleisiosaurs, are found on ancient ground, not seawater). Also, as far as the fully formed argument, we have too many damn fossils, independently found with similar morphological features that span two or more genera.
We have reptile like birds and bird-like reptiles. We have reptile- like dinosaurs and dinosaur- like reptiles, dinosaur- like mammals and mammal- like dinosaurs. We just have way too much data and evidence to deal with to just try to slip in a pat Biblical based or ID based story.
If things were created, why does the evidence support the no brainer conclusion that most life went extinct? Is this Intelligent Design or just bilogical tinkering?.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 04:53 am
real life said
Quote:
A problem, as I see it, is that if science approaches all evidence with an assumption of evolution, for instance (' Since Evolution is true, how does this evidence fit into the theory? ' ) , then aren't interpretations of evidence almost certainly bound to be bent to try to go along with the status quo and no other interpretations likely to be even considered
. Im sorry that you see it that way but when a group of fossils (just for an eg) are found we usually establish 3 things:
1A Linnean morphology (Is the fossil clearly identifiable within a certain group?) In that respect, we usually teqr the sucker apart to see whether anything deviates from a "bauplan"

2Stratigraphic context-What is the age in which the fossil's stratigraphy suggests? This often leads to all sorts of fancy chemistry, physics and correlation with nearby stratigraphy

3-Environmental contex-What sort of death assemblage is represented. Did the animal die of thirst, hunger, slipped n a hill of mud etc etc.

Sometimes the evidence just fits very tightly. Often the Evolutionary significance of many fossils are toosed out because the fossils are found to be contemporaneous with their supposed ancestors and this always presents a problem. We never hide the fact (The fossil hunters sometimes try to fake things to assist their specimen negotiation discussions but we leave them behind with all the "fossil fakers " out there). As I said, we never hide the fact that a fossil doesnt fit within a smooth sequence of intermediaries. Right now the very argument whether birds arose from dromeiosaurs or whether dinosaurs and birds both rose from an earlier common ancestor is being slowly revealed . Nobody took an evolutionistic turn in the fossil revelations in this controversy. In fact, quite the opposite, a number of scientists began preaching a version of punctuated equilibrium (which to me fits nicely in a spasmodic "Creationist" argument).

If only the Creationists would actually go out in the field and do something to advance their arguments, it would actually be a lot more fun to test their hypotheses against hard evidence that (usually grad students) are finding.


As far as the Circumstantial evidence accusation, "Guilty as charged", but as I said before, hunting and piecing together fossil stories is a forensic exercise. Itsno different than hunting down a crime via evidence. We can place a fossil at a point in time, in a certain environmetal setting and its of a certain species. Instead of a murderer we have an explanation that , places a suspect in a fence of evidence that is given a "best fit" test.

If I were to adopt your wish that we give an honest consideration to either Creationist or Intelligent Design hypotheses, then Ive got too many fossils here. The story of Creationism and its "sudden appearance fully formed" gets a bit lame because all these "sudden" appearances of genera occur through spans of time and are connected to precursor forms that display minor "model changes" as deep time progresses, and all this occurs by means that cannot support a Global Flood. We have dinosaurs and mammals that were killed by falling into sand traps or falling off high slopes on land(In fact, almost all dinosaur fossils, with the exception of the Mosasaurs and Pleisiosaurs, are found on ancient ground, not seawater). Also, as far as the fully formed argument, we have too many damn fossils, independently found with similar morphological features that span two or more genera.
We have reptile like birds and bird-like reptiles. We have reptile- like dinosaurs and dinosaur- like reptiles, dinosaur- like mammals and mammal- like dinosaurs. We just have way too much data and evidence to deal with to just try to slip in a pat Biblical based or ID based story.
If things were created, why does the evidence support the no brainer conclusion that most life went extinct? Is this Intelligent Design or just bilogical tinkering?.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 05:01 am
Do we have evidence of a double post? Razz Or, are my eyes believing something that is not there? ;-)
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 06:12 am
go through the evidence and present a convincing argument.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 08:35 am
farmerman wrote:
......... Often the Evolutionary significance of many fossils are toosed out because the fossils are found to be contemporaneous with their supposed ancestors and this always presents a problem. We never hide the fact (The fossil hunters sometimes try to fake things to assist their specimen negotiation discussions but we leave them behind with all the "fossil fakers " out there). As I said, we never hide the fact that a fossil doesnt fit within a smooth sequence of intermediaries..............


Hi Farmerman,

I appreciate your straightforward, 'shoot from the hip' reply, as always.

Yep fossils being found contemporaneous with their supposed ancestors would be a problem for evolution, alright. I'm curious, rather than tossing it out why is something other than evolution not considered?

I know you are right that it may not be 'hidden' but it doesn't make the front cover of National Geographic as far as I know. :wink:
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 09:15 am
Intrepid wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
How dreary would be the world if there were no God to praise. It would be as dreary as if there were no Franks. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The external light with which love fills the world would be extinguished.


I've heard this type of stuff before and it just amazes me.

Maybe your entire existence revolves around praising something, and you need it there just to get any pleasure out of being alive, but that's not for me.

I suppose I can't speak for all the agnostics in the world, but I know from my own experience that the things you say simply aren't true.

"How dreary would be the world if there were no God to praise....", give me a break. How dreary would be the world if you were right: Now *that* would be dreary.


If that is not for you...that is fine. Nobody is trying to force anything on you or make you think differently than you do. Opinions are given and can be accepted or rejected.

If you are happy in your world, I wish you peace.


And I wish you peace in yours as well.

But please don't try to tell me what the world would be like without your view of God, because I experience that world every day. I know from direct experience what that world is like, and I know you're wrong.

What you're really showing me with your statement is that you experience all the pleasure in life that I experience, except that you get it via an association with a concept of God, whereas I don't need that association.

To each his own.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 09:18 am
I think youve misunderstood. We toss out the Evolutionary significance of those particular fossils , and we look for other explanations. If we were to, say, accept a Creationist view, wed just say it and then stop any further work, no? What would be left to say?
No, the evolutionary significance of ancestors living contemporaneously with their "cousins" doesnt negate anything. It makes us look at other models. The most obvious one is "budding' where a cladistic tree has many "Buds" (like the horse) .Theres one root stock and via budding, a series of stems develop with different, but related species.
We didnt arise from monkeys, monkeys , apes, and humans, arose from a common ancestor. Morphological and genetic similarity is evident.

We lived contemporaneously with Neanderthals, were they related ? yes, were we an offshoot from Neanderthals? No.

The fact that you say it doesnt make the Cover of NAt Geo is incorrect. The recent 2004 Issue on Mammals had a great discussion of cladistics and "budding" and how phenotypes are classified based on a system that is being derived more from genetic rather than mere fossil evidence. The two complement each other but more and more "cousins" of a particular clade have been discovered by genotypic fomulae.
Articles about all these new interpretations and early misidentifications are constantly appearing in the popular literature (Scientific American, Discover etc) as well as more scholarly stuff (GSA, NAture, Science etc)

There is no fear in presenting data and evidence. Scientists dont run and hide. They feel that the more vetting the better. Creationists latch on to ONE explanation and no matter how the data and evidence refutes it, they are stuck to their position no matter what>
You cant really call that a scientific approach.
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 09:20 am
Pauligirl wrote:



can you support the part in bold??
is it really what you just said it is ??
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 09:22 am
real life wrote:
Yep fossils being found contemporaneous with their supposed ancestors would be a problem for evolution, alright. I'm curious, rather than tossing it out why is something other than evolution not considered?


Do you have another *scientific* theory, other than evolution, to suggest that we consider?

Are you asking us to consider theories outside of science?
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
  1. Forums
  2. » Evolution? How?
  3. » Page 196
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.07 seconds on 06/21/2025 at 01:40:04