Evolution? How?

Momma Angel wrote:

Are you serious about how is God superior to man? I would think that would be pretty explanatory.

really??

fine !!

what about the rest of my post ?

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It's all in the mind; we can make a cat superior to man/woman.

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C.I. Wrote:

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How can god be superior to man? Man created god(s). Man also created Santa Clause and Superman. These claims can all be proven; all the authors of the bible were men (and no women). They copied mythology and ancient tales to arrive at what is now called the bible. Most of the comic books and fisctional characerts were created and produced in the US of A. I think Santa Clause came from Germany.

Well, if, as you say that man created god(s) then he should have done a better job of it and there would only be one. Man DID NOT create God. God created man.

Real Life,

Do you know wrote the books of Ruth and Esther?

xingu,

You think the Bible degrades and insults God? What Bible do you read? What part of the Bible do you read? The Bible was God-breathed and God-inspired. If you think it degrades and insults God you are saying He is degrading and insulting Himself.

Our Bible can't get God right? What? Is this because you don't agree with the Bible or because it doesn't agree with you?

And I hardly think the people of the times the Bible was written were much concerned about whether the world was flat or what stars were!

Brahmin,

I am not ducking your question. I just need to make sure I have the right one. You want what I offered as my proof of God's existence? Is that the question.

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You think the Bible degrades and insults God? What Bible do you read? What part of the Bible do you read?

Well lets start with the OT. In it God slaughters innocent men, women and children, including babies and fetuses of pregnant women. I suppose you think that's wonderful.

Would you like some examples? God kills innocent children.

Genesis 7 :21-23
And all flesh that moved on the earth expired, fowl as well as cattle, and beasts, and all crawling things which crawl on the earth, and all mankind:
everything which had in its nostrils the breath of life, of all that was on the dry [land], died.
And every living being was destroyed that was on the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping things, and fowl of the heavens; and they were destroyed from the earth. And Noah alone remained, and what was with him in the ark.

Genesis 19:24
And Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven,

Exodus 12:29,30
And it came to pass that at midnight Jehovah smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of cattle.
And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his bondmen, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house in which there was not one dead.

In Joshua God kills everyone, including children and babies in

Jericho 6:21
Ai, all 12,00 of them 8:25,26
All the people of Makkedah (Joshua 10:28)
All the people of Libnah (Joshua 10:29, 30)
All the people of Gezer (Joshua 10:33)
All the people of Lachish (Joshua 10:32)
All the people of Eglon (Joshua 10:34, 35)
All the people of Hebron (Joshua 10:36, 37)
All the inhabitants of 1 of the country of the hills, and of the south, and the vale, and of the springs and all their kings (Joshua 10:40)

Here your God brags about how many people he killed.

Jeremiah 25:33
And the slain of Jehovah shall [be] at that day from [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the face of the ground.

This is what love is all about.

Leviticus 26:15-17
and if ye shall despise my statutes, and if your soul shall abhor mine ordinances, so that ye do not all my commandments, that ye break my covenant,
I also will do this unto you -- I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and fever, which shall cause the eyes to fail, and the soul to waste away; and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
And I will set my face against you, that ye may be routed before your enemies; they that hate you shall have dominion over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.

I could just go on and on because throughout the Bible its God slaughters innocent people. You seem to admire a God that does this. God of the Bible is perfect. God sets the example.

Did you know that one of the more admirable qualities of America is its principle of freedom of religion. Did you know your God of the Bible hates that. Your God can't live up to what America stands for.

Jude 1:5
But I would put you in remembrance, you who once knew all things, that the Lord, having saved a people out of [the] land of Egypt, in the second place destroyed those who had not believed.

Some more of your God's love and intolerance.

Revelation 21:8
But to the fearful and unbelieving, [and sinners], and those who make themselves abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part [is] in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

Kind of reminds you of Leviticus 26:15-17. This slaughter of people seems to be a consistent theme throughout the Bible. If we think wars and its associated bloodshed is so awful then why do you admire a God that encourages this behavior?

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And I hardly think the people of the times the Bible was written were much concerned about whether the world was flat or what stars were!

Your right, most were not. That's why the Bible is so inaccurate about the earth and stars, because God didn't write or inspire the Bible. It was written by ignorant men who didn't know, not by a God that had all the knowledge of the universe. That's why Creationism is so wrong.

If we are to take the Bible as literal truth then its God is one of the most bloodthirsty monsters known to this world. And for some strange reason you admire this.

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MA

Would you like an example of God's morality?

Kill everyone except the virgin women. In the end there were 32,000 virgin women to be given to the men.

Numbers 31:9-18
And the children of Israel took the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took for a spoil all their cattle and all their flocks and all their goods;
and all their cities in their settlements and all their encampments they burned with fire.
And they took all the booty, and all the prey, of man and of cattle;
and they brought to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the assembly of the children of Israel, the captives and the prey and the booty, to the camp in the plains of Moab, which are by the Jordan of Jericho.
And Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the princes of the assembly went forth to meet them outside the camp.
And Moses was wroth with the officers of the army, with the captains of thousands, and captains of hundreds, who came from the service of the war;
and Moses said to them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Lo, these, through the counsel of Balaam, caused the children of Israel to commit sin against Jehovah in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague on the assembly of Jehovah.
And now slay every male among the little ones, and slay every woman that hath known man by lying with him,
but all the children among the women that have not known lying with a man, keep alive for yourselves.

Kind of makes Abu Ghraib look tame, doesn't it MA.

http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/ham_bible_violence.htm

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Excellent Bible study site

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm

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Xingu,

A couple of things. First, have you ever read the New Testament?

Second, why did you leave out the reason God did those things? God surely did not feel there were any innocents in these cases. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, He said He would not destroy it if there were fifty innocents and even lowered that to ten innocents. Obviously, since Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, there were not even ten innocents there. When the Angels came to Lots house the crowd wanted them to come out so they could have sex with them. They were Angels for pete's sake. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah had no decency. That is why God destroyed them.

Third, I hate war because I hate the fact that people on this earth feel the need to slaughter each other, when we have the potential and capability to make this a decent place to live.

Fourth, who the heck is Abu Ghraib?

God created man. God makes the rules, God makes the punishment for breaking the rules.

If God, as you say, was so intolerant of religious freedom, then why did He give us free will?

We all have the free will to do what is right or what is wrong. We have the free will to make our own decisions. Is it not true that a lot of things we don't do wrong we don't do because they are against the law? Is that not because we know the rules and the punishment for breaking those rules? I would love to believe that laws don't get broken because everyone just knows better and doesn't have it in their character to do such things, but I am afraid that is not the case.

You made this statement: "Did you know that one of the more admirable qualities of America is its principle of freedom of religion. Did you know your God of the Bible hates that. Your God can't live up to what America stands for."

God can't live up to what America stands for? Why do you feel God has to live up to anything? Obviously, our concept of what God is, is very different.

And last, but most definitely not least, you make no mention of Jesus Christ whatsoever. God sent Him to be our intercessory for our sins. He accepted our punishment for our sins. How can that not be considered as a loving thing? If a friend of yours jumped in front of a bullet for you, would you call him ignorant and a monster? I think not.

I cannot and will not deny that God did the things you have pointed out. But, unless you take everything into consideration, it's not a fair discussion. Why is it that you leave the other parts out?

And I will ask you also, Xingu, is it that you contradict what the Bible says or is it that the Bible contradicts the way you feel?

I cannot make anyone believe anything. I offer my experiences and my beliefs. It is entirely your decision and anyone elses' as to whether they accept that or not. That is your religious freedom and right just as mine is to believe the way I believe and practice the faith I embrace.

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There are many proofs that man has created gods, but no proof that god created man. Your saying so doesn't make it true that god created man. Relying on one ancient book that claims such leaves the believer hanging on a thread, because that very book is full of contradictions, errors, and omissions. However, history shows how man has created many different gods way before your god was created - by man.

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C.I.,

Why do you think that is? Could it be because man doesn't want to follow certain rules so he makes up his own?

Could it be because there really is no God and man, even though he is so intelligent, has to have a God?

Could it be that religious freedom offers anyone and everyone to have the God of their choosing and that's what is being done?

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MA, History has shown that religion has never provided "freedom from religion." We now have creationists trying to force our schools to teach ID along side evolution. Creationism is not science, but all the religious nuts want it taught along with science. Religion is dangerous!

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C.I.,

Ok, you want evolution taught? Uh, because it's science right? Well, let's just assume that perhaps creationism can someday be proven. Now, why can't that also be taught?

I mean, before DNA and that scientific proof, how many people were convicted of crimes they did not commit because the evidence pointed in their direction?

What was once a theory is now science. So, was evolution not (or still is) a theory? And now, it's trying to be proven? You would give this credence and give none to the fact that perhaps creationism will someday be proven by science.

I am not saying it will. I am just saying, you seem to have to have scientific proof.

Scientic proof, at the time, proved Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy too. Uh....no, wait, that was a cover up? Uh...no, wait, that wasn't scientifically proven either.

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First, have you ever read the New Testament?

Yes, I have heard of the NT. Where do you think my quote of Revelations came from?

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Second, why did you leave out the reason God did those things?

Would you mind telling me the reason. Do you know? Do you care?

Tell me the reason God killed all the people of the Makkedah, the Libnah, the Gezer, the Lachish, the Eglon and the Hebron.

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Obviously, since Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, there were not even ten innocents there.

So the children and babies were just as guilty. I suppose, like you, they had a choice of parents. Since they lived in Sodom and Gomorrah it's their fault because they chose to have guilty parents.

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Third, I hate war because I hate the fact that people on this earth feel the need to slaughter each other, when we have the potential and capability to make this a decent place to live.

Then why do you love a God that causes war and slaughters people? Read your Bible. God causes plagues, earthquakes, famines and sets one nation on another, killing people and enslaving others.

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God makes the rules, God makes the punishment for breaking the rules.

What are the rules? Every Christian sect has its own God with a set of rules. Most of the rules the Biblical God set down in the OT are ignored. Do you eat shellfish? Do you wear clothing made of two different fabrics? Would you kill your children if they are disobedient? If God makes rules and abandons them how are we to know what he wants at any given time?

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If God, as you say, was so intolerant of religious freedom, then why did He give us free will?

Excellent question. Would you mind telling us why God is intolerant and kills people based on their religious beliefs? You're a Christian so tell me where is the use of free will if we are to be judged on faith and not behavior. According to most all conservative Christians I have debated with that is the one criteria that determines whether you go to Heaven or Hell.

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And last, but most definitely not least, you make no mention of Jesus Christ whatsoever. God sent Him to be our intercessory for our sins. He accepted our punishment for our sins. How can that not be considered as a loving thing? If a friend of yours jumped in front of a bullet for you, would you call him ignorant and a monster? I think not.

God did not sent his son. He has no son. God is God, period. If you want to say God morphed himself into a human and called himself Son, OK I'll accept that; I won't believe it but I'll accept it. But don't tell me that Christ is a son of God, separate and distinct in the same respect my daughters are to me. Christian belief says Christ and God are one in the same.

Also I don't buy this story of us being evil and having to be saved for our sins. If God of the Bible can order humans to murder other innocent humans then we must look upon God as being just as sinful as we are. He is no different from the very worst of us. We can't be sinful because we follow God's example. If we are evil for what we do then God in the Bible is equally evil.

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And I will ask you also, Xingu, is it that you contradict what the Bible says or is it that the Bible contradicts the way you feel?

I am a Deist. I believe in one God for all humanity, regardless of their faith. God put souls in all humans. He doesn't discriminate. If God's love is to be unconditional love for all humanity then there are no correct religions and no rules that he will judge you by. Rules, punishment and vengeance are human characteristics. If you want to make God to be humanlike then you are making a false God, like Zeus or the God in the Bible; jealous, selfish, vengeful and an uncontrollable temper that leads to murderous behavior.

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Obviously, since Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, there were not even ten innocents there.

---> i am not so sure god knows how to count.

When the Angels came to Lots house the crowd wanted them to come out so they could have sex with them. They were Angels for pete's sake.

---->> what are angels??

The people of Sodom and Gomorrah had no decency.

---->> just like the people of the inquisitions and the spaniards that ruined the civilizations of latin america and the soldiers of abu gharaib.

Third, I hate war because I hate the fact that people on this earth feel the need to slaughter each other, when we have the potential and capability to make this a decent place to live.

------->>>> yes that we do..... just need to try out the missiles we make on others first. incidentally the crusades just loved war, as did the templar knights and charlethemango of genocidal evangelism fame... not to mention the spaniards who hacked half the people of an entire continent - and in record time - in their desire to spread god's love and exemplefy "christian mercy" or whatever name they call it. which is not like saying the people of north america and oz were not hacked. not a single tasmanian exists, such is god's love for them !!

Fourth, who the heck is Abu Ghraib?

--->> aah so the news has been censored in the belt - cos it may pervert people with those lurid images??

God created man. God makes the rules, God makes the punishment for breaking the rules.
----->>> yes i wonder what sort of punishment god has for the aforementioned people who used to "PREY in jesus's name" as someone here had blurted out by way of a freudian slip once.

If God, as you say, was so intolerant of religious freedom, then why did He give us free will?

---->>> who says god is tolerant of religious freedom?? 2 of every 3 killings in the history of man have been caused by either muslims or christians - in an effort spread their religion and the love of their god.

We all have the free will to do what is right or what is wrong.

------>>> apparently missionaries dont. or even if they do, they choose to do the wrong - unless you are trying to say genocidal evangelism is right.

We have the free will to make our own decisions.

------>> natives of 3 continents (and also sub-saharan africa) would agree that while missionaries were around with their armies, they (the natives) had NO free will whatsoever to carry on with their own ways of life. it was either cross or sword.

Is it not true that a lot of things we don't do wrong we don't do because they are against the law?
-----> was that english ??

Is that not because we know the rules and the punishment for breaking those rules?
------->> unfortunately those crimes commited under the disguise of spreading religion (ie. only those 2 religions) - went largely unpunished.

I would love to believe that laws don't get broken because everyone just knows better and doesn't have it in their character to do such things, but I am afraid that is not the case.
-------->> yes its not. missionaries break all manner of laws and ethics and norms of decency possible even to this day all over the world. here i speak from 1st hand experience.

You made this statement: "Did you know that one of the more admirable qualities of America is its principle of freedom of religion. Did you know your God of the Bible hates that. Your God can't live up to what America stands for." God can't live up to what America stands for? Why do you feel God has to live up to anything? Obviously, our concept of what God is, is very different.
-------->> freedom of religion is alien to secondary semetism (christianity and islam). they caused carnage whereever they went. history bears ample evidence of that. usa, so far i know, fortunately allows everyone a lot of breathing space. well at least in the nonbiblebelt regions.

And last, but most definitely not least, you make no mention of Jesus Christ whatsoever. God sent Him to be our intercessory for our sins. He accepted our punishment for our sins. How can that not be considered as a loving thing? If a friend of yours jumped in front of a bullet for you, would you call him ignorant and a monster? I think not.

----->> what sins?? the sins of killing millions of natives in 3 continents, just to get them to convert??? the sins of the inquisition and crusades?? of the templar knights and stealing of saxon babies so that they grew up with a recently converted christian family?? well i wish he would not accept the punishments for those sins and would instead ensure that the guilty were brought to book. perhaps thats why the criminals carried on their religious crimes in peace - secure in the belief that they's be off the hook anyway. somewhere in the bible they should have pointd out that the "christian mercy" thingie is not for cold blooded mass murderers.

I cannot and will not deny that God did the things you have pointed out. But, unless you take everything into consideration, it's not a fair discussion. Why is it that you leave the other parts out?
------>> yes pleae take into consideration the fact that the ones who wrote all that each had their axe to grind and each knew a thing or two from sumerian, egyptian, assyrian and other cultures that he wanted to include in the book for keeps.

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I mean, before DNA and that scientific proof, how many people were convicted of crimes they did not commit because the evidence pointed in their direction?

----->> many. take the soi called "heretics" and "witches" in europe say. guillotined for no fault of theirs. and a lot more people did not get convicted for crimes that they DID commit than people who got convicted for crimes that did NOT commit. like i said the spaniards, the inquisitors, the knights and other missionary fanatics got off the hook (though not off the cross) despite their many mass murders.

Scientic proof, at the time, proved Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy too. Uh....no, wait, that was a cover up? Uh...no, wait, that wasn't scientifically proven either.
----->> so what are the proofs of creationalism and existance of god which you have. i am still waiting.

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Xingu Wrote:

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Yes, I have heard of the NT. Where do you think my quote of Revelations came from?

LOL. Good point. Why did you only point out something in the Book of Revelation? Why did you not mention anything of the teachings of God's Son, Jesus? The New Testament explains that Christ took sin upon Himself for US. You only showed half a picture.

Xingu Wrote:

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Would you mind telling me the reason. Do you know? Do you care?

Tell me the reason God killed all the people of the Makkedah, the Libnah, the Gezer, the Lachish, the Eglon and the Hebron.

Could you tell me where in the Bible I can find these? I looked for them in my index and concordance and could not find them listed. I would be happy to address this with you if I could find and read this.

Xingu Wrote:

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So the children and babies were just as guilty. I suppose like you, they had a choice of parents. Since they lived in Sodom and Gomorrah it's their fault because they chose to have guilty parents.

I did not get to choose my parents as no one does. I would say though that since in Biblical times children were far more oft than not to adopt their parents' beliefs and lifestyles? So, perhaps it was looked upon as they would also grow up to do the same things? I do not know that for sure. That is just a logical explanation IMO.

Xingu Wrote:

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Then why do you love a God that causes war and slaughters people? Read your Bible. God ccauses plagues, earthquakes, famines and sets one nation on another, killing people and enslaving others.

Again, these are things of the Old Testament. Yes, God caused plagues, etc. What would you have Him do? Say, uh, oh, excuse me, but if you don't stop that I am going to ground you for a week? Since God is perfect and without sin He is at one end of the spectrum as just we humans are at the other end. I can only tell you that God obviously considered the punishment to fit the crime.

Xingu Wrote:

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What are rules? Every Christian sect has its own God with a set of rules. Most of the rules the Biblical God set down in the OT are ignored. Do you eat shellfish? Do you wear clothing made of two different fabrics? Would you kill your children if they are disobedient? If God makes rules and abandons them how are we to know what he wants at any given time?

Most of those laws were ritual laws. Real Life is much better at explaining them than I am. God has not abandoned His laws. Read the Ten Commandments. Those laws are not abandoned. The Beatitudes are not abandoned. There are basic laws that as far as I am concerned, are pretty simple. God has not changed His laws, man has tried to change them.

Xingu Wrote:

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Excellent question. Would you mind telling us why God is intolerant and kills people based on their religious beliefs? You're a Christian so tell me where is the use of free will if we are to be judged on faith and not behavior. According to most all conservative Christians I have debated with that is one criteria that determines whether you go to Heaven or Hell.

Faith without works is dead. It is not just a matter of faith, you must follow through on that faith with your works. You have free will to follow man's laws do you not? It's the same principle. If you don't follow man's laws you are punished. If you do not follow God's laws you are punished. You are the one who makes the decision of what to do.

Xingu Wrote:

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God did not sent his son. He has no son. God is God, period. If you want to say God morphed himself into a human and called himself Son, OK I'll accept that; I won't believe it but I'll accept it. But do't tell me that Christ is a son of God, separate and distinct in the same respect my daughters are to me. Christian belief says Christ and God are one in the same.

Also I don't buy this story of us being evil and having to be saved for our sins. If God of the Bible can order humans to murder other innocent humans then we must look upon God as being just as sinful as us. We can't be sinful because we follow God's example. If we are evil for what we do then God in the Bible is equally evil.

God did send His Son. God has a Son. I'm not quite sure what you mean by morphed, but I don't understand how you can accept something but not believe it? Accept that I believe it maybe, but accept it and not believe. I'm not sure I understand that. You keep saying that God killed innocent humans. I don't recall one place in the Bible saying go out and kill that innocent human being. As a matter of fact, I recall God saying he would save ten innocents if they were to be found. He saved Lot because he was not guilty of the sins of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. And please do not tell me that Christ was killed by God and He was innocent. God did not kill Christ. Humans did.

And it's God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. There is a God and there is a Son and there is the Holy Spirit. Following God's example does not make us innocent. Not sinning makes us innocent and we are human and incapable of not sinning. God provided for that by giving us His grace and forgiveness through His Son, Jesus Christ.

Xingu Wrote:

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I am a Deist. I believe in one God for all humanity, regardless of their faith. God puts souls in all humans. He doesn't discriminate. If God's love is to be unconditional love for all humanity then there are no correct religions and no rules that he will judge you by. Rules, punishment and vengeance are human characteristics. If you want to make God to be humanlike then you are making a false God, like Zeus or the God in th Bible; jealous, selfish, vengeful and an uncontrollable temper that leads to murderous behavior.

Don't know what a Deist is for sure but I guess your next sentence kind of explains that. No rules that He will judge us by? Well, then if I were you, I wouldn't be worried about a thing. So, what do you care if I believe what I believe? I'm not worried. I'm not afraid. I'm content in my faith. Why is it important to you what I think or believe, unless of course, it is all for the sake of argument.

I am not trying to make God to be humanlike. I keep telling you, He is God. He is perfect. He is without sin. There's not much human about that seeing man is the opposite of that. And yes, those are human characteristics and those are the things that we are to avoid being. We are to not be those things. God Himself said He is a jealous God. He; however, does not have an uncontrollable temper that leads to murderous behavior.

What He does have is patience and He gives us chance after chance after chance to do what is right. He provided us His Son so that we would not have to suffer the punishments of those in the OT. Your free will decides what you want. God wants nothing but love, peace, and goodness for us.

Brahmin, I will now respond to your question next but not in this same answer to Xingu.

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brahmin Wrote:

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---> I am not so sure god knows how to count.

The Bible says he knows the number of every hair on your head...so this leads me to believe He can count very well.

brahmin Wrote:

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--->what are Angels?

Angels are personal beings, having aspects of intelligence, emotions, and will. This is true of both the good and evil angels. Good angels, Satan, and demons possess intelligence (Matthew 8:29; II Corinthians 11:3; I Peter 1:12). Good angels, Satan, and demons show emotions (Luke 2:13; James 2:19; Revelation 12:17). Good angels, Satan, and demons demonstrate that they have wills (Luke 8:28-31: II Timothy 2:26; Jude 6). Angels are spirit beings (Hebrews 1:14), with no true physical body. The fact that they do not have bodies does not affect their being personalities (any more than it does with God).

The knowledge angels possess is limited by their being creatures. This means they do not know all things as God does (Matthew 24:36). They do seem to have greater knowledge than humans however. This may be due to three causes. (1) Angles were created as a higher order of creatures in the universe than humans are. Therefore, innately they possess greater knowledge. (2) Angels study the Bible and the world more thoroughly than humans do and gain knowledge from it (James 2:19; Revelation 12:12). (3) Angels gain knowledge through long observation of human activities. Unlike humans, angels do not have to study the past; they have experienced it. Therefore, they know how others have acted and reacted in situations and can predict with a greater degree of accuracy how we may act in similar circumstances.

Though they have wills, the angels are, like all creatures, subject to the will of God. Good angels are sent by God to help believers (Hebrews 1:14). Satan, though most powerful and cunning in carrying out his purposes in this world, is limited by the will of God (Job 2:6). Demons too have to be subject to the will of Christ (Luke 8:28-31). Here are some activities the Bible ascribes to angels:

A. They praise God (Psalm 148:1,2; Isaiah 6:3)

B. They worship God (Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 5:8-13)

C. They rejoice in what God does (Job 38:6-7)

D. They serve God (Psalm 103:20; Revelation 22:9)

E. They appear Before God (Job 1:6; 2:1)

F. They are instruments of God's judgments (Revelation 7:1; 8:2)

G. They bring answers to prayer (Acts 12:5-10).

H. They aid in winning people to Christ (Acts 8:26; 10:3).

I. They observe Christian order, work, and suffering ( I Corinthians 4:9; 11:10; Ephesians 3:10; I Peter 1:12).

J. They encourage in times of danger (Acts 27:23,24).

K. They care for the righteous at the time of death (Luke 16:22).

brahmin Wrote:

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---->>just like the people of the inquisitions and the spaniards that ruined the civilizations of latin america and the soldiers of abus gharaib.

The difference is God handed down punishment on Sodom and Gomorrah, humans handed down the punishments of the others.

brahmin Wrote:

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------->yes that we do...just need to try out the missiles we make on others first. incidentally the crusades just loved warn, as did the templar knights and charlethemango of genocial evangelism fame...not to mention the spaniards who hacked half the people of an entire continent - and in record time - in their desire to spread god's love and exemplefy "christian mercy" or whatever name they call it. which is not like saying the people of north america and oz were not hacked. not a singl tasmanian exists, such is god's love for them!!

Again, these were things done by man, not God. In the time of the OT God actually spoke to people. He no longer does that. In these examples you give, those were man's interpretation of what God wanted. They were not direct edicts from God.

brahmin Wrote:

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...>>aah so the news has been censored in the belt - cos it may pervert people with those lurid images??

Have no idea is it has been censored or not. I have no idea who this is. I also have no idea who a bunch of people in history (past, present, etc.) are. I don't know everyone or everything. I asked because I don't know and wanted to know. I can't answer something if I don't know anything about it whatsoever.

brahmin Wrote:

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------> yes i wonder what sort of punishment god has for the aforementioned people who used to 'PREY" in jesus's name" as someone here had blurted out by the way of a freudian slip once.

No need to wonder. The Bible tells you that exactly. I would have to look up the specific verses, but I can tell you, IT'S A BIG NO NO!

brahmin Wrote:

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----->>> who says god is tolerant of religious freedom?? 2 of every 3 killings in the history of man have been caused by either muslims or christians - in an effort spread their religion and the love of their god.

Again, THESE ARE THINGS DONE BY MAN and not done by God. You keep seeming to try to blame God for these things when they are committed by man.

brahmin wrote:

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------> natives of 3 continents (and also sub-saharan africa) would agree that while missionaries were around with their armies, they (the natives) had NO free will whatsoever to carry on with their own ways of life. It was either the cross or sword.

Again I say to you, these are things done by man and not by God.

brahmin Wrote:

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----->was that english??

LOL. Ok, there are things in this world we do not do because it is against the law; perhaps somethings that we don't feel should be against the law. The point is, we don't do them because they are against the law and there is punishment for doing them.

brahmin Wrote:

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----->yes, its not. missionaries break all manner of laws and ethics and norms of decency possible even to this day all over the world. here i speak from 1st hand experience.

Understood. At least here you are putting the blame on those committing the act. I am sorry this has been your experience. This is not the experience God would have for you.

brahmin Wrote:

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-------->freedom of religion is alien to seconday semetism (christianity and islam). they caused carnage wherever they went. history bears ample evidence of that. usa, so far I know, fortunately allows everyone a lot of breath space. well at least in the nonbiblebelt regions.

But again, these things are things done by man and not by God. And, I am not sure what you mean by that nonbiblebelt comment. Can you elaborate?

brahmin Wrote:

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yes pleae take into consideration the fact that the ones who wrote all that each had their axe to grind and each knew a thing or two from sumerian, egyptian, assyrian and other cultures that he wanted to include in the book for keeps.

Like I said before, the Bible is God-breathed and God-inspired. What I was talking about being left out were the examples in the New Testament and any example in the Old Testament of God's love.

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brahmin Wrote:

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------->may. take the soi called "heretics" and "witches" in europe say. guillotined for no fault of theirs. and a lot more people did not get convicted for crimes that they DID commit than people who got convicted for crimes that did NOT commit. like i said the spaniards, the inquisitors, the knights and other missionary fanatics got off the hook (though not off the cross) despire their many mass murders.

And like I said, these are things done by man and not by God. And off the hook? I don't think so. The Bible is pretty specific about this kind of thing.

brahmin Wrote:

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---->>so what are the proofs of creationalism and existance of god which you have. I am still waiting.

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brahmin Wrote:

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---> I am not so sure god knows how to count.

MA wrote:
The Bible says he knows the number of every hair on your head...so this leads me to believe He can count very well.

I understand now why god made some people bald; he doesn't need to count their hair. LOL

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cicerone imposter wrote:

brahmin Wrote:

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---> I am not so sure god knows how to count.

MA wrote:
The Bible says he knows the number of every hair on your head...so this leads me to believe He can count very well.

I understand now why god made some people bald; he doesn't need to count their hair. LOL

LMBO! Well, do you think maybe that statement can be taken to mean that He knows everything? LOL

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