neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 03:39 am
Adaptation is not micro speciation.
0 Replies
 
djbt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 04:30 am
If two tyoes of creatures are not able to reproduce, then they are of a different speciesm, right? Are you saying that small adaptations in reproductive organs could not result in this?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 07:30 am
djbt wrote:
real life wrote:
What is the empirical evidence for life spontaneously generating from non-living chemicals? Who observed this?

What do you mean by 'living' in these context? Do you mean 'self-replicating? If so, then me. I observed it, in salt crystals, in GCSE chemistry.



Last time I checked (on my eggs this morning), salt crystals are not living.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 09:59 am
real life wrote:
djbt wrote:
real life wrote:
What is the empirical evidence for life spontaneously generating from non-living chemicals? Who observed this?

What do you mean by 'living' in these context? Do you mean 'self-replicating? If so, then me. I observed it, in salt crystals, in GCSE chemistry.



Last time I checked (on my eggs this morning), salt crystals are not living.


Nope, that's true.

The blur between living and non-living only occurs with viruses. They require a host to reproduce. They don't grow. They don't eat. They don't think. They don't generate waste matter (with the exception of when they burst out of the cell and even then they themselves don't produce any waste materials).

Yet in cells, they replicate and self-propagate their own kind. They show survival "behaviour", avoiding the immune system as much as possible. In the case of a cell that is technicaly dead (it has lost its replicative machinery) a virus has been shown to enter and revive the cell, bringing it back to life.

Viruses are on the same level as our DNA, yet they show potential for being life. So does that mean our DNA is alive too?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 10:11 am
djbt wrote:
If two tyoes of creatures are not able to reproduce, then they are of a different speciesm, right? Are you saying that small adaptations in reproductive organs could not result in this?
Just what are you saying? Are they creatures? Then they were created, no?

Actually, I would defer to farmer for a definition of species. I am not convinced that inability to reproduce is an essential part of the equation. And I would aver the gulf between adaptation and speciation to be galactic.

BTW; would you be so kind as to begin using the spell check feature in your posts? It would not only make them easier to understand, it would enhance your credibility.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 12:17 pm
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Oh, how do you know that?

It is written in the science books.


No. It's shown by physical evidence. The science books and theories are based on empirical evidence.



Ok so what is the empirical evidence for the Big Bang? Who observed it and what did he see?

What is the empirical evidence for life spontaneously generating from non-living chemicals? Who observed this?

What is the empirical evidence for one creature turning itself into another? Has anyone actually seen this occur?


Observation of an event itself is not required for a scientific theory to be considered valid. It never has been. An accepted scientific theory is simply the best naturalistic explanation for explaining the conditions we currently observe. If the acceptance is very strong within the community, then it is accepted as a fact. Such is the case with Evolution, and with the BB.

The empirical evidence for all the things you mentioned are the conditions of the natural world around us. Evolution, and Biogenesis and the BB are all valid models for how the conditions around us could have come to be. And at present, they are the only naturalistic explanations which fit the evidence.

If yoou want to start considering theories which are outside of naturalism, then that's fine, but they won't be "scientific" theories.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 12:24 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Had you been following the thread, you would have realized that I was spoofing Setanta with these comments based on his post.


I could see that you were mocking his words, but I assumed that your post also had a point to it.

Are you saying that the things you wrote don't reflect your view on this subject?
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 01:50 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Had you been following the thread, you would have realized that I was spoofing Setanta with these comments based on his post.


I could see that you were mocking his words, but I assumed that your post also had a point to it.

Are you saying that the things you wrote don't reflect your view on this subject?


Anything below the spoof would have been my thoughts, yes.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 02:05 pm
Real

Here's what fossils tell us

1. Different species came about at different times, not all at one time.
2. It gives us a timeline
3. It shows the progression of one species to another.

Every new fossil found is another piece of evidence that supports evolutions and destroys the Creationist mythology.
Present your science that supports Creationism.
If you don't have any you have nothing but a myth.

I'm sure FM can give a better explanation on this subject then I.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 02:09 pm
neologist
Quote:
I am not convinced that inability to reproduce is an essential part of the equation. And I would aver the gulf between adaptation and speciation to be galactic.

Then youve missed the basic definitions in biology . Reproductive isolation, more than morphological differences establish species . Thats what biology says.
Adaptation is a mechanism . Speciation is a result.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 02:19 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Oh, how do you know that?

It is written in the science books.


No. It's shown by physical evidence. The science books and theories are based on empirical evidence.



Ok so what is the empirical evidence for the Big Bang? Who observed it and what did he see?

What is the empirical evidence for life spontaneously generating from non-living chemicals? Who observed this?

What is the empirical evidence for one creature turning itself into another? Has anyone actually seen this occur?


Observation of an event itself is not required for a scientific theory to be considered valid. It never has been. An accepted scientific theory is simply the best naturalistic explanation for explaining the conditions we currently observe. If the acceptance is very strong within the community, then it is accepted as a fact. Such is the case with Evolution, and with the BB.

The empirical evidence for all the things you mentioned are the conditions of the natural world around us. Evolution, and Biogenesis and the BB are all valid models for how the conditions around us could have come to be. And at present, they are the only naturalistic explanations which fit the evidence.

If yoou want to start considering theories which are outside of naturalism, then that's fine, but they won't be "scientific" theories.
(emphasis mine)

So if enough folks believe it, it's a fact? I don't think so.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 02:30 pm
xingu wrote:
Real

Here's what fossils tell us

1. Different species came about at different times, not all at one time.
2. It gives us a timeline
3. It shows the progression of one species to another.

Every new fossil found is another piece of evidence that supports evolutions and destroys the Creationist mythology.
Present your science that supports Creationism.
If you don't have any you have nothing but a myth.

I'm sure FM can give a better explanation on this subject then I.


1. & 2. Fossils give us a timeline, eh? Do they come time-stamped?

Even if an accurate date is attained ( and most dates are VERY subjective ) does that mean that the same creature in question did not exist for a long time prior to that date? Of course not.

Just because you do not find fossils of a particular creature for a particular period, does it mean it did not exist? That's an argument from silence and not a lot else.

3. Progression is in the mind of the beholder, my friend. Unless you have observation of the phenomena itself to back it up. Has anyone actually OBSERVED one creature to 'progress' to another? Don't waste your time checking, they haven't.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 02:33 pm
Real and Intreped

You two keep saying you have no proof of evolution.

Please tell us what will constitute proof of evolution in your eyes.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 03:27 pm
Real

All you do is nit-pick at science.

Can you offer any evidence for your creationism or are your beliefs so bankrupt that it's a useless endeavor attempting to give evidence supporting creationism?
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 03:55 pm
xingu wrote:
Real and Intreped

You two keep saying you have no proof of evolution.

Please tell us what will constitute proof of evolution in your eyes.


Where have I said that there is no proof of evolution? Either I am a poor writer, or your reading comprehension has not evolved to a suitable level. I have even stated that I believe that Creationism and Evolution can co-exist. I do not believe that evolution is responsible for everything.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 05:30 pm
If you believe in evolution you would not have said this;

Quote:
If evolution could be proved inconclusively then we could do away with God.


Absolute ridiculous nonsense. There are infinite ways to believe in God. Don't think your beliefs or your religion has a monopoly on it.

Quote:
Is this a phony science since evolution has not been proven to be true?


First you say evolution is a phony science and now you say you believe in it. Little scattered brained, aren't you?

Quote:
Evolutionists choose to believe in the theory of evolution because they do not want to believe in God and if creation is true there must be a God.


No, they choose to believe in evolution because that's the direction the evidence points. There are evolutionists who are believers and who are not. I accept evolution and I'm a deist.

You just said you believe in evolution. I guess that makes you a godless heretic that will burn in Hell.

There are a lot of Christians who believe in evolution.

Quote:
Man would not be the supreme being he thinks he is


Do you think he is? Do you think we are the supreme creation of the universe?

Quote:
The theory of evolution suggests that non living matter turned into organisms that eventually grew legs and then walked on land and turned into monkeys that further turned into today's man.


I don't think anyone really knows how life started. There are a lot of ideas but the older the time period the greater the chance evidence was destroyed by geologic processes. But don't lose heart; there's a lot of research going on and one day we will have the answers. As for the rest, very good, I think you may be learning something.

Quote:
If science claims that evolution took place over millions of years to produce what we see today and that the condtions had to be just right, why do scientists search the stars for other life? The odds against it happening once are beyond human comprehension. More than once?


You see, if you believed in evolution you would realize that environment, not God, dictates the life that is created. As it appears now there may be billions of planets in our universe that has the same conditions as our planet. Any planet with those conditions will have life.

So, yes, life can form on any planet provided it has the environment.

Some stuff to read.
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/evolution/dn7741

"Any wet, rocky, sunlit planet will have life," said colleague Michael J. Russell of the Scottish Environmental Research Centre in Glasgow. "It's a matter of course. Life is absolutely inevitable."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/01/0130_030130_originslife.html

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-08/uoh-eol081205.php
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 06:32 pm
The central issue, and problem, of this thread, is a subcurrent in contemporary Christianity which is a form of paranoia. For reasons which are often more concerned with personal demagoguery than with doctrinal orthodoxy, influential members of the Christian community have advanced--in the not-quite one hundred and fifty years of the public discussion of evolution--the thesis that acceptance of a theory of evolution will inevitably lead to a denial of the existence of a deity. Certainly, let it be acknowledged there are a great many people who espouse this point of view precisely for reasons of doctrinal orthodoxy. For many, and perhaps most, of the religiously devout who reject a theory of evolution, the appearance of a denial of doctrinal orthodoxy both invalidates the theory, and reveals it for an atheistic assault on their own beliefs.

The member that began this thread placed it in Spirituality and Religion as opposed to Science and Mathematics. Although to the observer not exercised with the question, this may seem quixotic, it is understandable that for those who feel their core belief system is under assault--i.e., those who entertain the paranoia to which i've referred--this is a religious issue. The first two posts of this thread read:

Quote:
What makes Evolution so believable. Just because a bunch of scientists tell you it is. It is a theory, an idea, a guess. Why?


Quote:
I seem to find a lot more truth from the Bible and not what a bunch of scientists tell me. come on seriously how believable is all the "scientific" stuff they say is right. a monkey turning in to a man? A big bang and the world was formed? How did the stuff that collided get formed?


Obviously, this in a character of a stochastic criticism of a theory of evolution--that it is conjecture, and conjecture only. It is not, however, unreasonable to suggest that a great many genuine practitioners of science would be willing to so stipulate. On such a basis, the religiously devout who indulge the paranoia about an atheistic subtext to a theory of evolution therefore retort that their conjecture, their preferred dogmatic canon, has as much validity, or that it makes better sense than evolutionary biology.

Additionally, despite sneers from the religiously devout that those who accept a theory of evolution as the most plausible explanation for the diversity of forms of life want to consider themselves the superior being in the universe, it is in fact just such a contention which often motivates their scorn and disgust with the notion that man and the great apes share a common ancestor. It is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. In the King James Version, Genesis, chapter 1, verse 26, reads:

Quote:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


So in fact, for many devout Christians, they are themselves "the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals," and all plant and animal life is inferior to them, God having granted to them dominion over all other life. It is a deep affront to them to be characterized as a cousin to a chimpanzee, because they believe themselves to be the superior being of the universe, saving only the God who created them.

To read the 316 pages of this thread would be to find the same arguments advanced again and again by each side in the dispute, and to see those arguments treated with incredulity and scorn by each side in the dispute. Those who consider a theory of evolution to be the most plausible explanation for the diversity of forms of life on this planet are not likely to be convinced by appeals to religious orthodoxy. Those who consider their preferred religious canon to be the repository of all truth are not likely to be convinced by a contention of the superiority of scientific materialism as an explanation for observable phenomena. So i submit that such a discussion as this is an exercise in futility.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 06:37 pm
real life wrote:
So if enough folks believe it, it's a fact? I don't think so.


No. If enough folks agree with the theory then it's accepted as a fact within science (emphasis mine).

You are treating the term "fact" as though it's some type of universal absolute beyond the limits of science, and nobody in science is treating it that way or claiming that.

Evolution is a scientific fact because the basic tenets of the theory have been demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt. But it's not an "absolute" fact in a metaphysical sense. Nothing can be known with absolute certainty, even our very perceptions of reality are questionable... but that's not science.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 06:43 pm
real life wrote:
Has anyone actually OBSERVED one creature to 'progress' to another? Don't waste your time checking, they haven't.


Has anyone actually OBSERVED a full grown redwood tree growing from a tiny seed. No, but everyone knows they grow from seeds because there's enough evidence for it. Same thing with Evolution.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 06:56 pm
Setanta wrote:
Those who consider their preferred religious canon to be the repository of all truth are not likely to be convinced by a contention of the superiority of scientific materialism as an explanation for observable phenomena. So i submit that such a discussion as this is an exercise in futility.


The point is not to convince the other side. The point is to flood the info-net with enough verbiage of our own viewpoint to begin to sway google-hits such that they display a majority of your own views and relegating your competion to the bottom of the list.

It's a cyber info war, the high tech equivalent of shouting down your competition.
0 Replies
 
 

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