Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2005 07:22 pm
Sure, sure . . .
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2005 07:42 pm
neo, I like your attitude. Wink
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2005 09:13 pm
Attitude! Schmattitude!

With an occasional beatitude.

I'm a dyed in the wool believer. What can I say?

BarBeCue at Joe's on the 5th. No firearms allowed. Laughing
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2005 09:15 pm
How bout beer?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2005 09:24 pm
Firewater in moderation, of course.http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/cheers.gif
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2005 09:44 pm
Setanta wrote:
Just the response for which i had hoped. Were your deity eternally existant, said deity becomes logically unnecessary. The universe can just as well be eternally existant. And it is certainly not axiomatic that those who pursue science, either with the interest of the layman, or as a career, customarily assert anything to be settled fact. The point of the scientific method is to arrive at the best explanation consistent with the data amassed to date.

Which puts your god thesis on shakey ground. To date, after thousands of years of bald assertion, the existence of such a deity has not been supported by a single datum. Someone as reasonable as yourself should be able to understand why someone else, me for example, would therefore find theism irrelevant. Unless and until theists produce some plausibility in their assertions, the question of whether or not there is a deity will be meaningless to me. Therefore, the insertion of a deity into any cosmological explanation appears to me a non-sequitur, and just plain silly.


If observable evidence is all that you can recognize, then your thesis that the universe could be eternally existent is doomed, because it has not ever been observed to be so. The scientific method cannot establish an eternally existent universe. Not even close.

So if both an eternally pre-existent God and an eternally pre-existent universe suffer from the same defect of unobservability, why is one thesis 'religious' and the other 'scientific' ? Seems to me they are both statements of faith.

Now which thesis could best account for the world that we see-- a world of incredible complexity, physical laws that are consistent and reliable systems that function like clockwork according to those laws? The thesis of an incredibly Intelligent Creator or the thesis of Random Matter and Blind Chance?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2005 09:53 pm
As I was saying:
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1541015#1541015
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2005 09:56 pm
How can anybody prove creation when there is no hard evidence to support the idea? Creationism is based on assumptions, guesses, and the bible. Assumptions and guesses do not count towards trying to prove it wrong. Have you ever studied logic?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2005 10:09 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
How can anybody prove creation when there is no hard evidence to support the idea? Creationism is based on assumptions, guesses, and the bible. Assumptions and guesses do not count towards trying to prove it wrong. Have you ever studied logic?
Proving anything with absolute certainty would be quite a chore. There is Descartes' famous pronouncement: What else?

What are your premises? That would be a good place to start. Truth cannot contradict truth.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2005 10:37 pm
I know you would love to shoe horn this debate into a tiny, airless box filled only with your terms, "real" life, but it ain'ta gonna happen. I have never stated that observable evidence is all that i can recognize, so tediously, you indulge in a penchant for erecting strawmen. Furthermore, i very carefully stated that i have no brief to characterize cosmological origins as known or knowable facts. Therefore, it is typically ludicrous to contend that i am indulging a statement of faith when i have not made the statement which you allege. So in conclusion, no, i won't be drawn in to accepting and debating your silly terms about clockwork, an "intelligent creator," random matter (a truly hilarious and silly term) and blind chance. We are not conversing in German here, you know, it is not customary to capitalize substantives in English.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 02:55 am
I'm not a believer but I hope I don't ridicule those that do believe in a deity. What I find difficult about this debate (aside from the science which is well above my head) is the assumption that believers can make.

I don't mean to caricature it but this is how it sounds to me:

"I believe there is a God. I believe God made the universe etc. and Earth and humans, etc. I can't prove this but I don't care because I believe it. Nothing you say will change my mind"

Is that what's called a circular argument or is that wrong? That's not a rhetorical question, I would appreciate a correction on that if it is needed.

Anyway, speaking on behalf of me, I'm not fussed about what anyohne believes. Go ahead, believe. Just don't affect my life with your beliefs.

Now along come those who propose evolution.

Full of doubt, perfectly ready to be continually sceptical, they delight in discovery and continually debate the various ideas that from time to time are produced by inquiring minds.

How can those two groups even begin to debate with one another? It's parallel tracks.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 03:28 am
For your edification, the most common circular argument in which the religiously fanatical christian deals runs more or less like this:

I believe this because God has said so.

Oh, how do you know that?

It is written in the bible.

But what is the authority of the bible?

It is divinely inspired.

How can you be certain of that?

Because God has said so.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 06:10 am
For your edification, the most common circular argument in which the scientific evolutionist deals runs more or less like this:

I believe this because the big bang is the reason.

Oh, how do you know that?

It is written in the science books.

But what is the authority of the science books?

It is inspired knowledge.

How can you be certain of that?

Because scientists have said so.

......................

Evolution is a theory, not a science Creationism is a belief, not a science. If evolution could be proved inconclusively then we could do away with God. It seems that science is based on evolution rather than evolution being based on science. Is this a phony science since evolution has not been proven to be true? Evolutionists choose to believe in the theory of evolution because they do not want to believe in God and if creation is true there must be a God. Man would not be the supreme being he thinks he is.

The theory of evolution suggests that non living matter turned into organisms that eventually grew legs and then walked on land and turned into monkeys that further turned into today's man. The theory further goes that this all started with a big bang. They cannot answer what went bang and how that ball of plasma material got there to begin with.

If science claims that evolution took place over millions of years to produce what we see today and that the condtions had to be just right, why do scientists search the stars for other life? The odds against it happening once are beyond human comprehension. More than once?
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 06:23 am
I appreciate the examples of circular argument, thank you.


Now on specifics:

Quote:
Evolution is a theory, not a science Creationism is a belief, not a science. If evolution could be proved inconclusively then we could do away with God. It seems that science is based on evolution rather than evolution being based on science. Is this a phony science since evolution has not been proven to be true? Evolutionists choose to believe in the theory of evolution because they do not want to believe in God and if creation is true there must be a God. Man would not be the supreme being he thinks he is.

The theory of evolution suggests that non living matter turned into organisms that eventually grew legs and then walked on land and turned into monkeys that further turned into today's man. The theory further goes that this all started with a big bang. They cannot answer what went bang and how that ball of plasma material got there to begin with.

If science claims that evolution took place over millions of years to produce what we see today and that the condtions had to be just right, why do scientists search the stars for other life? The odds against it happening once are beyond human comprehension. More than once?



Isn't theory just a part of science in toto?
If evolution could be proved conclusively why would that do away with God?
I don't think science is based on evolution, my understanding is that science is a method.
Evolution is a theory, but the best one science has at the moment I think.
I think people who accept evolution as a theory aren't being dogmatic. I think they accept evolution until the next best solution - based on evidence and the scientific method - comes along.
I think a belief in God is separate from any acceptance of evolution.
I don't think people who accept evolution believe that humans are supreme, if they did they wouldn't accept evolution unless they accepted that homo sapiens are the total end product of evolution.
No, I don't think the theory of evolution ever suggested that non-living matter turned into humans. I don't think anyone suggested humans evolved from a rock, or mud, or clay.
I think the big bang theory is cosmological and not evolutionary.
I like that things are beyond current human comprehension. We wonder.
Well some of us do. Some of us are content not to wonder. We are happy with fairy stories and pre-digested explanations.

If you believe in a God do you believe that God made us sceptical wonderers as well as muddle-brained believers? Or is that the fault of evolution?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 06:40 am
Intrepid. Youve stepped into a pile of youre own making.
The Big Bang, is an explanation that was forwarded based upon a set of understandings of the cosmos at the time of the theory's proposal. Today, more than 30 years later, cientists are taking a more careful look and a look that , as always, is skeptical (would your worldview allowthat?-I doubt it)
The big bang is now competing withalternative hypotheses, many equally sound(or equally as ridiculous) as BB. Too much data gets in the way of indurated philosophies.

EVolution has, like most theories,been worked and studied and tested for about 150 years now and , instead of dropping from view, its gone beyond Mssrs Darwin and Wallace. Its a mature , well evidenced keystone of biology.
Dobzhansky's quote that "Nothing in biology makes any sense, except in the light of evolution" is never more true.
Evolution clears up the hows, whens ,wheres, and whys of so many individual observations about life. Something that a Creationist view cannot begin to claim without severely bending existing LAWS of Chemistry and Physics
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 06:56 am
Intrepid wrote:
For your edification, the most common circular argument in which the scientific evolutionist deals runs more or less like this:

I believe this because the big bang is the reason.

Oh, how do you know that?

It is written in the science books.

But what is the authority of the science books?

It is inspired knowledge.

How can you be certain of that?

Because scientists have said so.


This is, of course, nonsense. A cosmological hypothesis based upon an event such as the putative "Big Bang" has no reference to evolution. You're indulging in apples to oranges. Furthermore, scientific papers and treatises are peer reviewed for content and method, while scripture is always locked into a canonical imperative at some point in time, usually early on in the life of the shell game. Those who consider a theory of evolution to be a good explanation for the diversity of life forms are not engaged in dogmatic belief, they are accepting the most plausible explanation for the data amassed to date. The essence of science is scepticism, which means that if your theory does not adequately explain the data amassed, the theory must either be modified to do so, or scrapped altogther. When hypothesis advances to theory, it must hold up to scrutiny on the basis of prediction. Few, if any, scientific theories have stood up so well to the test of predictability. Religious dogma, on the other hand, does not admit of scepticism, which is immediately condemned as either heresy or apostasy. No revision of scripture is ever countenanced. Certainly it must be entertaining for the religiously deluded to use terms such as "evolutionist." However, those who consider a theory of evolution to be the most plausible explanation for the diversity of life forms are not engaged in promoting an ideology. The religious are doing precisely that.

Quote:
Evolution is a theory, not a science.


This is a bootless and fallacious attempt to create a distinction. Evolution is a scientific theory which has an outstanding track record at prediction.

Quote:
Creationism is a belief, not a science.


Truer words have rarely been written.

Quote:
If evolution could be proved inconclusively then we could do away with God.


One does not seek to inconclusively "prove" evolution. Theories are attempts to explain data, and are therefore subject to review, modification or rejection. A theory of evolution has as one of its strengths that little modification has been needed upon review, and it has stood up very well in the change from a consideration of morphological evidence to genetic evidence. The only rejection of a theory of evolution comes not from the application of the scientific method, but from those frightened for their religious dogma. Evolution does not concern itself with cosmological origins, and it is therefore not an attempt to "do away with god." That is the sort of alarmist paranoia which is dear to the heart of religous demagogues eager to marshall the faithful into an easily manipulated army of "christian soldiers," most often for the political, and too often the venal, ends of said demagogues.

Quote:
It seems that science is based on evolution rather than evolution being based on science.


If this seems so to you, one can only conclude that you know precious little about science or evolution.

Quote:
Is this a phony science since evolution has not been proven to be true?


You attempt to pose this as a rhetorical question, but your rhetoric is false. Theories are not articulated to prove anything, their purpose is to create the most economical statment of explanation for amassed data. Theories must successfully provide either for replication or be successfully predictive, or they will be abandoned. Evolutionary theory has an excellent predictive record.

Quote:
Evolutionists choose to believe in the theory of evolution because they do not want to believe in God and if creation is true there must be a God. Man would not be the supreme being he thinks he is.


You are at least honest about the propaganda which you have either unthinkingly swallowed whole, or seek to disseminate. Once again, those who consider a theory of evolution to be the most plausible explanation for the diversity of life forms are not ideologues promoting a dogmatic belief. If you can produce a more reliable and consistent explanation entailing replicability and/or predictive reliability, your fame and fortune will be assured. A statement such as "they do not want to believe in God" is indicative of paranoia, and suggests that the "they" specified are willfully denying something which cannot logically be denied. In fact, the existence of a deity cannot logically be demonstrated, and such a belief requires blind faith. Anyone, including well-informed laymen, who considers what sciences such as astronomy and physics have learned about our cosmos readily understands that we are insignificant in the face of ordinary forces on this planet, such as storms of hurricane proportion, earthquakes and volcanic activity. They further understand that we inhabit a small planet orbiting a small and unpreposessing star on the fringe of a galaxy which is merely one of millions, if not billions, of such formations. No one with a good grasp of what astronomy and physics have learned will have any illusions about our significance in the cosmos.

Quote:
The theory of evolution suggests that non living matter turned into organisms that eventually grew legs and then walked on land and turned into monkeys that further turned into today's man.


This is a simplistic and simple-minded attempt to describe a complex process in terms which can easily be ridiculed. It is also typical of the feeble attempt that the religiously fanatical routinely indulge of attempting to characterize a theory of evolution in a manner which they believe will make it easy to dismiss.

Quote:
The theory further goes that this all started with a big bang.


There is not a shred of truth in this statement.

Quote:
They cannot answer what went bang and how that ball of plasma material got there to begin with.


Which in no way authorizes a contention that some mystical dude out in the cosmos waved a magic wand and said: "Let there be light."

Quote:
If science claims that evolution took place over millions of years to produce what we see today and that the condtions had to be just right, why do scientists search the stars for other life?


If a theory of evolution posited such a thing, you might have a valid question. However, you are begging the question. No one purports that "conditions had to be just right." That's a strawman. A little bit of the application of intelligence would reveal to you that life has taken the forms now evident in response to the conditions under which it arose.

Quote:
Scientist recognize The odds against it happening once are beyond human comprehension. More than once?


Which scientists would those be? Do you have some names and references? Making it up as you go along is a very poor forensic technique.

Taken all in all, this was a pathetic display of ignorance and misrepresentaion. Personally, i expect nothing less from the religious fantatic, especially those with paranoid delusions about an assault on their cherished beliefs. Personally, i don't give a rat's ass whether or not there is a deity, nor what you choose to believe. I do care if my tax dollars get spent to puke up religiously-inspired nonsense to school children.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 09:05 am
Is this any more nonsensical than your statements....
Setanta wrote:
Quote:
For your edification, the most common circular argument in which the religiously fanatical christian deals runs more or less like this:

I believe this because God has said so.

Oh, how do you know that?

It is written in the bible.

But what is the authority of the bible?

It is divinely inspired.

How can you be certain of that?

Because God has said so.


Intrepid wrote:
Quote:
Evolution is a theory, not a science.


Setanta replied:
Quote:
This is a bootless and fallacious attempt to create a distinction. Evolution is a scientific theory which has an outstanding track record at prediction.


What is the difference in saying that evolution is a theory not a science and that it is a scientific theory? A theory is a theory.

Setanta wrote:
Quote:
This is, of course, nonsense. A cosmological hypothesis based upon an event such as the putative "Big Bang" has no reference to evolution.


If it is said that a big bang got everything started and would, therefore, be the cause of the beginning why would it not be part of the evolution sequence to which you subscribe?

Setanta wrote:
Quote:
Taken all in all, this was a pathetic display of ignorance and misrepresentaion. Personally, i expect nothing less from the religious fantatic

Now we get to what may be your real agenda. Kicking those who subscribe to religious beliefs regardless of what points they may or may not make. Was this addition necessary? Did it serve your purpose?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 10:40 am
Intrepid wrote:
Is this any more nonsensical than your statements....
Setanta wrote:
Quote:
For your edification, the most common circular argument in which the religiously fanatical christian deals runs more or less like this:

I believe this because God has said so.

Oh, how do you know that?

It is written in the bible.

But what is the authority of the bible?

It is divinely inspired.

How can you be certain of that?

Because God has said so.


What, no more comment than your silly question? You don't seem to have any complaint with this otherwise, which is appopriate, as that is how the arguement is most frequently advanced. Yes, you are correct, it is nonsensical, which is what i was pointing out.

Quote:
Intrepid wrote:
Quote:
Evolution is a theory, not a science.


Setanta replied:
Quote:
This is a bootless and fallacious attempt to create a distinction. Evolution is a scientific theory which has an outstanding track record at prediction.


What is the difference in saying that evolution is a theory not a science and that it is a scientific theory? A theory is a theory.


One wonders what you think a theory to be. You are attempting to suggest that a theory is not a part of scientific inquiry. Theories are the statements from which scientific inquiry proceeds. Your attempt there is fallacious because, in fact, evolutionary biology is a science, in the sense that physics is a science, in the sense that any discrete area of scientific inquiry is a science.

Quote:
Setanta wrote:
Quote:
This is, of course, nonsense. A cosmological hypothesis based upon an event such as the putative "Big Bang" has no reference to evolution.


If it is said that a big bang got everything started and would, therefore, be the cause of the beginning why would it not be part of the evolution sequence to which you subscribe?


By whom is that said? I see you ignore FM's response to your silliness. By the pathetic criterion you advance here, the "big bang" would be part of grammar, the "big bang" would be a part of home economics, the "big bang" would be a part of automotive design. You are attempting to create a statement which links one not particularly strong cosmological thesis to evolutionary biology. Cosmological origins are meaningless to evolutionary biology. An evolutionary biologist's work would not change were it demonstrated that such an event as the putative "big bang" could not possibly have occurred. No part of the core thesis of a theory of evolution is dependant upon a stipulation of cosmological origin--and that is in fact why reputable scientists who also happen to be religiously convinced men and women accept a theory of evolution as the most plausible explanation for the diversity of life forms. How the universe was formed has no relevance for evolutionary biology. It only matters in the minds of those who wish to peddle a specious contention that a theory of evolution intends to prove that no god exists. That is the height of irrational paranoia.

Quote:
Setanta wrote:
Quote:
Taken all in all, this was a pathetic display of ignorance and misrepresentaion. Personally, i expect nothing less from the religious fantatic

Now we get to what may be your real agenda. Kicking those who subscribe to religious beliefs regardless of what points they may or may not make. Was this addition necessary? Did it serve your purpose?


I don't have an agenda, beyond pointing out when someone egregiously lies. I don't care if that is because you are simply a paranoid deluded by someone else's propaganda, or a purveyor of that propaganda yourself. What you wrote was full of misrepresentations and either ignorance or willful lies. Whenever that happens, the record needs to be set straight, so that those who are seeking information are not simply left with your paranoid agenda. So it was certainly necessary to serve that purpose.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 10:56 am
Truth and proof in science.
Experiments sometimes produce results which cannot be explained with existing theories. In this case it is the job of scientists to produce new theories which replace the old ones. The new theories should explain all the observations and experiments the old theory did and, in addition, the new set of facts which lead to their development. One can say that new theories devour and assimilate old ones (see Fig, 1.2). Scientists continually test existing theories in order to probe how far can they be applied.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 11:00 am
Truth and proof in religion has no such checks and balances. You cannot have a theory that you cannot continually explain through observation and experiements by others.

Faith and belief is the underlying basis of religion.

Attempting to compare science and religion is trying to compare apples and carrots; there's no relationship to compare, although we are able to consume both.
0 Replies
 
 

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