Evolution? How?

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The true secret of enjoyment lies in sacrifice. Sacrifice has also been declared to be the only means of achieving immortality. Giving up what is taken in is a law of life. It applies to breathing, food and other things. Likewise, the wealth which one acquires should also be given back to society. Wealth includes not only riches, but every other form of acquisition including knowledge, scholarship, and skills of various kinds. The knowledge you have acquired through education should be imparted to others. It is by such sharing that your education gets enriched and purposeful. If you do not impart the knowledge you possess, it becomes useless. This means that the more you give, the more you grow.

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How's life out there on the fringes these days, Jesus? You doin' OK?

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shiyacic aleksandar wrote:

The true secret of enjoyment lies in sacrifice. Sacrifice has also been declared to be the only means of achieving immortality. Giving up what is taken in is a law of life. It applies to breathing, food and other things. Likewise, the wealth which one acquires should also be given back to society. Wealth includes not only riches, but every other form of acquisition including knowledge, scholarship, and skills of various kinds. The knowledge you have acquired through education should be imparted to others. It is by such sharing that your education gets enriched and purposeful. If you do not impart the knowledge you possess, it becomes useless. This means that the more you give, the more you grow.

SA, I invite you to read my short short story SACRIFICE

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For those who are interested in reading and commenting on it

Finding Design in Nature
By CHRISTOPH SCH?-NBORN
Published: July 7, 2005
Vienna
EVER since 1996, when Pope John Paul II said that evolution (a term he did not define) was "more than just a hypothesis," defenders of neo-Darwinian dogma have often invoked the supposed acceptance - or at least acquiescence - of the Roman Catholic Church when they defend their theory as somehow compatible with Christian faith.

But this is not true. The Catholic Church, while leaving to science many details about the history of life on earth, proclaims that by the light of reason the human intellect can readily and clearly discern purpose and design in the natural world, including the world of living things.

Evolution in the sense of common ancestry might be true, but evolution in the neo-Darwinian sense - an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection - is not. Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.

Consider the real teaching of our beloved John Paul. While his rather vague and unimportant 1996 letter about evolution is always and everywhere cited, we see no one discussing these comments from a 1985 general audience that represents his robust teaching on nature:

"All the observations concerning the development of life lead to a similar conclusion. The evolution of living beings, of which science seeks to determine the stages and to discern the mechanism, presents an internal finality which arouses admiration. This finality which directs beings in a direction for which they are not responsible or in charge, obliges one to suppose a Mind which is its inventor, its creator."

He went on: "To all these indications of the existence of God the Creator, some oppose the power of chance or of the proper mechanisms of matter. To speak of chance for a universe which presents such a complex organization in its elements and such marvelous finality in its life would be equivalent to giving up the search for an explanation of the world as it appears to us. In fact, this would be equivalent to admitting effects without a cause. It would be to abdicate human intelligence, which would thus refuse to think and to seek a solution for its problems."

Note that in this quotation the word "finality" is a philosophical term synonymous with final cause, purpose or design. In comments at another general audience a year later, John Paul concludes, "It is clear that the truth of faith about creation is radically opposed to the theories of materialistic philosophy. These view the cosmos as the result of an evolution of matter reducible to pure chance and necessity."

Naturally, the authoritative Catechism of the Catholic Church agrees: "Human intelligence is surely already capable of finding a response to the question of origins. The existence of God the Creator can be known with certainty through his works, by the light of human reason." It adds: "We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom. It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or chance."

In an unfortunate new twist on this old controversy, neo-Darwinists recently have sought to portray our new pope, Benedict XVI, as a satisfied evolutionist. They have quoted a sentence about common ancestry from a 2004 document of the International Theological Commission, pointed out that Benedict was at the time head of the commission, and concluded that the Catholic Church has no problem with the notion of "evolution" as used by mainstream biologists - that is, synonymous with neo-Darwinism.

The commission's document, however, reaffirms the perennial teaching of the Catholic Church about the reality of design in nature. Commenting on the widespread abuse of John Paul's 1996 letter on evolution, the commission cautions that "the letter cannot be read as a blanket approbation of all theories of evolution, including those of a neo-Darwinian provenance which explicitly deny to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe."

Furthermore, according to the commission, "An unguided evolutionary process - one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence - simply cannot exist."

Indeed, in the homily at his installation just a few weeks ago, Benedict proclaimed: "We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

Throughout history the church has defended the truths of faith given by Jesus Christ. But in the modern era, the Catholic Church is in the odd position of standing in firm defense of reason as well. In the 19th century, the First Vatican Council taught a world newly enthralled by the "death of God" that by the use of reason alone mankind could come to know the reality of the Uncaused Cause, the First Mover, the God of the philosophers.

Now at the beginning of the 21st century, faced with scientific claims like neo-Darwinism and the multiverse hypothesis in cosmology invented to avoid the overwhelming evidence for purpose and design found in modern science, the Catholic Church will again defend human reason by proclaiming that the immanent design evident in nature is real. Scientific theories that try to explain away the appearance of design as the result of "chance and necessity" are not scientific at all, but, as John Paul put it, an abdication of human intelligence.

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So the creator is not necessarily a micro manager. Is that it?

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This is basically his argument; science can explain the details.

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The Catholic Church, while leaving to science many details about the history of life on earth.

But everything is the way it is because it was designed by God. If science says this is not so then it's not science.

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Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.

I find this sentence funny. It's ideology if any explanation, other then a grand design by God, is presented. But it's not ideology or dogma if the Church says this is how it is.

And how do we know the Church is right?

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that by the light of reason the human intellect can readily and clearly discern purpose and design in the natural world, including the world of living things.

Freely translated; if you don't believe it your stupid.

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but evolution in the neo-Darwinian sense - an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection - is not.

Sorry Cardinal SCH?-NBORN but there is not enough evidence one way or the other to make a definitive statement like that. Statements like that fall in the realm of ideology.

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Naturally, the authoritative Catechism of the Catholic Church agrees: "Human intelligence is surely already capable of finding a response to the question of origins. The existence of God the Creator can be known with certainty through his works, by the light of human reason." It adds: "We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom. It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or chance."

I disagree. This planet may very well be created by chance. This earth was created in much the same way fish reproduce. Fish will lay millions of eggs with the chance that a few will survive into adulthood. Was it a grand design that only those particular few survived or was it chance?

Look in the sky. Unlike the authors of the Bible we know that the stars are suns and galaxies; not tiny points of light that will fall from the sky at the end of times. There are so many galaxies, suns and planets in the universe that it would boggle our mind to think of a number big enough to describe them. Like fish eggs some will have conditions that will enable life to develop. That's chance.

If the earth was the only planet in the universe and the sun the only sun I would agree that chance is ridiculous. But that's not the way it is. Infinite number of stars and planets mean there is a chance for some, not just one, to support life. And this, of course, means there may be millions of planets in this universe that support some type of life.

Did God design the universe this way? The only answer to that is in your and the Church's ideology? We don't know enough to answer that question.

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very good reasoning xingu. I am of the opinion that with ID getting so much "traction" by its major spokesmen, perhaps the Church is planning a 180. Michael Behe is a Catholic and , like many of us, his days started with Jesuits. Who, in my association have never feared the Church when they proclaimed "question everything"

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xingu wrote:

Look in the sky. Unlike the authors of the Bible we know that the stars are suns and galaxies; not tiny points of light that will fall from the sky at the end of times. There are so many galaxies, suns and planets in the universe that it would boggle our mind to think of a number big enough to describe them. Like fish eggs some will have conditions that will enable life to develop. That's chance.

If the earth was the only planet in the universe and the sun the only sun I would agree that chance is ridiculous. But that's not the way it is. Infinite number of stars and planets mean there is a chance for some, not just one, to support life. And this, of course, means there may be millions of planets in this universe that support some type of life.

Xingu, I would be the last to agree with the position of the Catholic Church. But be careful not to overintellectualize here. Take for example the highlighted sentence: The writers of the bible were ordinary men, it is true. Now we know that what appear to be stars are often galaxies. But these are made up of stars, are they not? So we can fault neither the bible writers nor the God who inspired them on this point.

And we have to be careful about how we opine about chance. If the probability of an event is miniscule, then we would have to agree that astronomically large opportunities would bring about that event. That doesn't work if the odds are zero.

Keep in mind I am not trying to challenge your conclusions, only this small part of your connected reasoning.

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Those that you call great scientists of our age...
Are as good as the world where they live in!
Do you really think they are great in any way?I dont think so;
Dont be too proud...
Those scientist search for planets and discover there are planets not only in our system(!) but seem it to be in the whole universe!!! Very Happy

How kiddish...of course
How can you follow these innocent and unintelligent people, products of our societies of competition and marketing,when they are unable to count the planets in our own system(12 in their totallity)?
Let me assure you ancient Egiptians were much better!
Truth cannot be found through microscopes nor telescopes,but only through the prism of a pure heart.
Ancient wisdom and devotion are the right tools to be used and not competition or speculation! :wink: Very Happy

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shiyacic aleksandar wrote:

How can you follow these innocent and unintelligent people

It's at least better than following the guilty and intelligent people, since they're always the ones who come up with the most deceptive schemes.

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Mr. Aleksandar, what the Heck is wrong with you?

Scientists come up with proof, which has been proved to not be just a mere figment of chance. They come up with all sorts of things and you deny them?

Yet you would have it that your personal gobbledy-gook is more true than what the scientists can come up with?

Let us take your post and look at each sentence individually

shiyacic aleksandar wrote:

Those that you call great scientists of our age...
Are as good as the world where they live in!

What's that supposed to mean? That they're imperfect? Of course, they are. The Curies were great scientists, but they weren't great enough to know that the work they were doing was killing them.

One individual scientist may be great in what he achieves, but he alone is only one piece of the puzzle. He is as equally important and unimportant as the other scientists. Without him the puzzle is incomplete, but by himself, the puzzle is still incomplete.

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Do you really think they are great in any way?I dont think so;

Let's see you try to achieve what they did.

They are great in what they achieved. They worked hard to discover what they did. To insult them after all the effort they put into their work, to those that risked their lives like the Curies, is an insult to their memory.

Your argument could be applied equally to those who fought for our countries. [sarcasm]Why were they so great? Even without them, our lands would still exist.[/sarcasm]

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Dont be too proud...
Those scientist search for planets and discover there are planets not only in our system(!) but seem it to be in the whole universe!!! How kiddish...of course

Someone get an astronomist here or a physicist, so they can talk some sense.

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How can you follow these innocent and unintelligent people, products of our societies of competition and marketing,when they are unable to count the planets in our own system(12 in their totallity)?

You try counting them on a planet that revolves around a Sun, with light moving at a sluggish 3 million kilometres per second (I think that's the speed, but it has been more than five years since I did physics so I'm not sure), with the planets themselves moving around the Sun.

You need to see the planets in order to count them and if they're out of sight and if takes a long time for light to reach them, how can you count them for sure?

How proud you think you are, to know the truth without lifting a finger to prove anything. You slander them. You insult them. You dismiss their hardwork as folly when you yourself have done none of this hardwork to prove any of it true or false.

Ancient wisdom, with the exception of that found through scientific methods, is nothing more than speculation.

A foolish man is one that relies solely on his heart.
A foolish man is one that relies solely on his mind.
Truth can only be found through the combination of heart and mind, and turns them to the application of thought and hardwork to prove speculation true or false.

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The writers of the bible were ordinary men, it is true. Now we know that what appear to be stars are often galaxies.

To Creationists the writers of the Bible were not ordinary men. They were selected by God to put his message to words. That's why they believe the Bible is the word of God, inerrant and perfect; because it came from a perfect God.

The problem is the selected men that supposedly received this word from God believed the earth was flat, the sun moved around the earth, the earth was the center of the universe and the stars were small twinkely lights, not suns and galaxies.

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"No, the Bible is not a plot of conspirators, as we will see. The fact is, the Bible was written by forty different writers over a period of fifteen hundred years, most of whom never met or talked to each other.
From cover to cover, these writers claimed that God gave them every word. Psalms 68:11 says, "God gave the word, great was the company of those who published it." The Apostle Paul said, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God (God-breathed) ..." (II Timothy 3:16). Peter claimed, "We have not followed cunningly devised fables ... We have a more sure word of prophecy ... For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (II Peter 1:16-21).

http://www.fbbc.com/messages/kohl_write_bible.htm

Did you know that the Bible says the stars were created on the fourth day?

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"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

Genesis 1:16

So the stars were created after the earth. You know why? Because the earth is the center of the universe; God's special creation. Everything else in the universe is just so much garbage.

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"The universe has a purpose. The purpose is centered in man. There is no other purpose mentioned in the Scriptures."

http://www.scripturessay.com/q256d.html

This is the type of mentality your dealing with when you deal with Creationists.

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Ancient wisdom and devotion are the right tools to be used and not competition or speculation!

I suggest the next time you get sick you treat yourself the way ancient Egyptians did 4,000 years ago.

After all our modern medicine is made up of

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innocent and unintelligent people, products of our societies of competition and marketing

so it must be worthless.

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Dont be too proud...

Of course your not being too proud when you come online and claim to know the correct way to believe and trash science.

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xingu wrote:

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Dont be too proud...

Of course your not being too proud when you come online and claim to know the correct way to believe and trash science.

Zing you, xingu! How hard would it be for you to identify the authors of the quotes you are using?

It's a pain in my arthritic backside to have to go back through several pages of posts trying to find the author of a statement I didn't agree with in the first place.

I also take exception to your mingling my quotes with those of others. I don't do it to you and I would appreciate it if you didn't do it to me.

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xingu wrote:

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Ancient wisdom and devotion are the right tools to be used and not competition or speculation!

I suggest the next time you get sick you treat yourself the way ancient Egyptians did 4,000 years ago.

After all our modern medicine is made up of
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innocent and unintelligent people, products of our societies of competition and marketing

so it must be worthless.

I am not denying the objective progress in medicine,physics,maths or astrophysics...(Are people happier in general?)

Nor I try to pretend I can expose all my knowledge here on this forum...
I cant!
It would be not reasonable nor it is the right place.

So far that one believes Humanity rules the world he will remain ignorent,that is a rule...However amazing space stations and space shuttles may appear incredibly advanced for us ,aswell as other inventions and toys that serve as support and tools for the develloping intelligence of men...

I have nothing to give to those who are contant and closed to sacred wisdom.They can work along with the mass.Those hwo firmly believe that God or the Self is the ruler of Our existances are about to find Truth everywhere around them,in them.

My wish is to see who is a true seeker and who is a stubborn ,closed ,materialist full of indefinite fears... :wink:

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shiyacic aleksandar wrote:

I have nothing to give to those who are contant and closed to sacred wisdom.They can work along with the mass.Those hwo firmly believe that God or the Self is the ruler of Our existances are about to find Truth everywhere around them,in them.

My wish is to see who is a true seeker and who is a stubborn ,closed ,materialist full of indefinite fears... :wink:

You yourself are being "constant and closed" to scientific advances and the truth that has been proved to be more true than what you get in "ancient wisdom". Granted, not all ancient wisdom is wrong, but then again, not all of it is right.

Why do you believe your belief is true? What proof do you have and how can you be sure that the proof you have can be trusted?

You can "work along with the mass" of those who are ignorant and refuse to believe what has been proven to be true.

"Those who firmly believe that God or the Self is the ruler of our existences" can beileve that. It might be true, it might not be, but if their belief gets in the way of truth, then it is wrong.

My wish it so to see who is a true seeker and who is a stubborn, closed, ignoramous full of indefinite fears that their beliefs are wrong.

Materialism is wrong. Pure spiritualism to the ignorance of what has been proven to be true is wrong.

Only those that are willing to consider the evidence and adapt to changing circumstances can find the real truth.

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You yourself are being "constant and closed" to scientific advances and the truth that has been proved to be more true than what you get in "ancient wisdom". Granted, not all ancient wisdom is wrong, but then again, not all of it is right.

No I am not closed but when you are in the university you dont need to reread the books you red when you were in the elementary classes.
I understand the period of time of human evolution and believe me if you observe ants on the ground youll find out that humans are copying ants!!!
They reproduce something by observing it in the nature.Is this Evolution,Science?Maybe yes but, the very beggining!...
My Truth doesnt need a microscope or a telescope nor it has to be analyzed only human truths have to be analyzed because they are ephemeral,not eternal they come from emotionnal level of thoughts wheras Truth comes from God you dont need to be suspicious like a fox or a monkey.It is eternally true!

A man should use society for his own uplift and not to be used by it.
Take what seems to be usefull and build on it!There are good informations nowadays aboud the nature of the matter,and its okey,
but spiritual is the thing which is the root of the creation. :wink:

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aleksandar said

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My Truth doesnt need a microscope or a telescope nor it has to be analyzed only human truths have to be analyzed because they are ephemeral,not eternal they come from emotionnal level of thoughts wheras Truth comes from God you dont need to be suspicious like a fox or a monkey.It is eternally true!

The neat thing about science is that we work on what we dont know. We dont spend a lot of time on what we do, except that where its useful to solve problems in areas that we dont yet understand. You, on the other hand, extend your "truth" to entire areas that you neither undertsand nor wish to. I call that blind faith. Its ok if you wish to use that as your personal roadmap through life, but excuse me if I say that youre about as credible as any Creationist "research institute" , full of words butno cohesive story.

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