The Feminist Paradox

FD writes


Building on Panzade's post, could it not be just as harmful to push young women and girls to 'be men?', to disregard their inate intelligence as women and attempt to be something that will be forever foreign and uncomfortable to them? Why not encourage each person to see himself/herself as the miracle s/he is and develop whatever God given gifts and talents have been bestowed, follow their heart, and never let something that is hard get in the way of one's goals.

If we dealt with people that way, I wonder how they might sort themselves out in society? If men and women are in fact wired differently, I can see how it could be extremely frustrating for them not to understand that is part of the reason they are the way they are.

(And I think they are.)

girls are icky, pull their hair.

Finally, a voice of reason.

"...pull their hair" while they "scratch your back...."

Who advocated doing that?



Exactly. But understand that for a lot of women this means having talents that are not traditionally or societally understood to be female. Why must the choice be between doing what she's good at and being a woman? Why can't we just assume that women and girls are just as capable as men and let them sort it out from there?



I'm really really hoping that by "wired differently" you mean in the ways we make choices and not in our inate abilities and talents.

Foxfyre, what does that mean, though?

Do you think all men are good at science? Do you think no women are? If you answer "no" to both of those questions, how does that statement above have any relevance?

The sorts of things I linked to encourage women to excel in the sciences, and give them some means to do so, but if a woman is plain bad at science, well, she can just be plain bad at science. There are men who are plain bad at science, too.

You have a woman who's bad at science and a man who's bad at science. Do you tell the woman that it's because of how she's wired? What do you tell the man?

You seem to think that the woman who's bad at science would have her frustrations lessened if she knew that, ya know, she's just wired that way. Wouldn't the man's frustration be increased? I'm a man, dammit, I'm supposed to be good at science?

I much prefer to just take the gender stuff and the wiring stuff out of it and do what we can to level the playing field -- and then let the players do what they will.

I think taking generalities and making them into specifics is silly.

Men, in general, are better at math and science.

There is nothing false about that statement. There is nothing wrong with that statement.

Innately better? Or, in our present society? This has to be defined I think.

I think there is something wrong with that statement as 1) how do you know that is true and 2) what do you mean by better? If you mean that more men pursue the highest levels in math and science than women, that is true. But we don't actually know if men in general or on average outperform women other than that.

Jumping to the conclusion that men are better at math and science is a brain-washed opinion. Read the article on the following link before you maka a fool out of yourself. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/09/000913083409.htm

If men and women are wired with different inate talents and abilities, what is wrong with acknowledging that? As a amateur but very keen student of human nature for a very long time now, I believe it is highly probable that men and women are wired differently in many ways. I am a type A person who is obsessive about just about any project I undertake that interests me and I have a lot of interests. As the wife, I chose to be the one to pull up professional stakes and move whenever my husband was transferred and, as we have lived many places, I have had many jobs. Most of those were jobs traditionally held by men.

I tried it both ways: 1) trying to be one of the boys and doing the job as a man would do it, or 2) recognize that I was a woman doing the job and I would have a somewhat different perspective, emphasis, and approach than the guys would normally have. I was successful with both methods, but I was much happier being a women doing the job than I was trying to do the job as a man would do it.

I think we may seriously harm our young people when we tell them there is no difference. I believe there are; I believe the differences do not in any diminish our value or worth, and that we are happiest when we learn to recognize and appreciate them.

You're kidding, right? That proves nothing to contradict what I said.

Let's look at some other generalizations...

Men, in general, are...

stronger
taller
heavier


Any disagreement?

If we can acknowledge physical differences, why is it difficult to acknowledge mental differences as well?

No, the link I included negates the common assumption that men are better at math and science. I never claimed there are "no differences" between men and women. Men are from mars and women from venus. That still holds true. LOL

The study shows women socred 12 points higher iin groups with no men, but it does not mention how the men included in the study scored. I find that odd.

It does. It said that men consistently scored 67 percent. Women, with no men present, scored 70.

It's from Brown University, so I'm sure a quick search will reveal that "secret."

That was a bad study that used a small sample group in very strict controls. It is hardly representative of refuting the generality we are discussing.

It is helpful, though, because it backs up my claim that perpetuating the myth that women are naturally not good at math can result in women holding themselves back and not reaching their potential.

<edit>

Oh yeah. And I agree that the samples were too small, but the interesting thing is that the male results didn't vary while the female results did. If the errors were due to sample size I would expect to see variation in the men's results as well.

NATIONAL ALLIANCE OF STATE SCIENCE AND MATHEMATICS COALITIONS
News Brief #2985 Category: Postsecondary Education
TITLE: "Primed for Numbers: Are boys born better at math?"

Lawrence Summers' public suggestion that biology may explain why men outnumber women in the fields of math and science sent shock waves throughout academia. The Harvard University president has since apologized repeatedly for his comments, but some researchers are pointing to studies that they say support Summers' theory.

For example, cognitive research indicates that, when it comes to mathematical ability, girls tend to do better in arithmetic, and boys are more apt in spatial tests. Studies by M. Beth Casey, a professor of applied developmental and educational psychology at Boston College, suggest that this spatial aptitude may give boys an early advantage.

Casey measured the effect of students' self-confidence on their math ability, and compared that to the effect of their spatial and mechanical reasoning. Spatial skills proved three times as important as confidence. Yet, Casey notes, schools don't teach spatial math thinking. She is trying to address that gap by designing an elementary curriculum that emphasizes spatial-problem-solving skills (http://www2.bc.edu/~caseyb/oview.html).

Another study by Johns Hopkins University researchers tracked mathematically talented students to study how they arrived at education and career choices. The gifted females were also likely to have high verbal skills, and tended to put their broader abilities to use in the life sciences and humanities at higher rates than the boys. Thus, researchers say, it may be that women naturally gravitate to fields other than engineering and science.

Still, other researchers argue, slight gender differences can't begin to explain why fewer than 10 percent of tenured faculty members in mathematics are women.

"I no longer ask why there are so few women in mathematics; I ask why there are so many," said Alice Silverberg, a professor of mathematics and computer science at the University of California at Irvine. "I can think of few male mathematicians who would have stayed in the field if they had faced the prejudice and discrimination female mathematicians deal with."

SOURCE: Chronicle of Higher Education, 04 March 2005 (p. A01)
WEBSITE: http://chronicle.com/prm/weekly/v51/i26/26a00102.htm

source

This study on gender bias may or may not be helpful. (If somebody has already posted this link, my apologies.)

http://www.colorado.edu/iec/SUM97RW/SAT.html