8
   

Freedom of Speech on Campus Should be Protected

 
 
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 09:04 am
Free speech should be respected, encouraged, and allowed almost anywhere (especially in our learning institutions).

Some of these evens have costs associated with them, and many speakers charge money to attend these events. The speakers bear those costs or the people paying to see them do. Security is one of those costs.

Of the goal of the speakers is to reduce these costs then they can just put their free speech on YouTube. ISPs don’t get block YouTube or other sites where unpopular speech can be shared.
camlok
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 09:08 am
@maporsche,
Quote:
Free speech should be respected, encouraged, and allowed almost anywhere (especially in our learning institutions).


Stunning hypocrisy, maporsche. And not only from you but from large segments of the US, segments that should be encouraging free speech, like the universities and the US media. Not to mention US administrations who mouth the propaganda about free speech but who don't really believe in it.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 09:34 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

Not surprisingly I see it as having succeeded.

I took a position that you stated would bring me insults, personal attacks, and off topic digressions.

None of that happened.


You’re currently singleing out a particular poster, that’s the closest we’ve come to personal.


Our bet was for you to take a position that the in-crowd finds unacceptable. I do not believe that EhBeth disagrees with the position you are taking on this thread after the first post. Your first post was promising. Izzy and EhBeth got you to backtrack on the principle pretty quickly. You never stood up to them. That is why you haven't been attacked.

You are pretty much going along with what the in-crowd wants you to say. That doesn't prove the point (or maybe it does).


maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 09:38 am
@camlok,
Camlok, You are descending into silly personal insults. But I want to make this point.

Free Speech, by definition, can't take sides. It means that a right wing speaker that some people find racist such as Charles Murray has the same right to free speech as a Muslim Imam who offends you as anti-American or a Feminist who offends me as hating men.

Free speech means that people have the right to say things that offend me. I defend that right.

I support free speech for any ideology (I accept very narrow exceptions for real immediate threats).
camlok
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 09:59 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Camlok, You are descending into silly personal insults.


Free speech comes with responsibilities, Max, like not making silly accusations to score what you think are points.

Quote:
But I want to make this point. ...
Free Speech, by definition, can't take sides.


Yet it does, all the time, in the US. [and other complicit western nations]

Free speech does not mean freedom to advance lies. Freedom of speech obviously has much more lofty motives involved in it.

As I said, it comes with responsibilities. It means that all topics are always on the table and all topics have to be honestly addressed. To fall short of that simply illustrates that free speech does not exist in the US. It's merely a propaganda ploy.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 10:16 am
@camlok,
Quote:
Free speech does not mean freedom to advance lies.


Yes it does.

If lies are prohibited, any tyrant can simply decide what the truth is and put anyone who strays from his truth in jail.

Freedom of speech means that any person can decide for himself what the truth is rather than having the truth decided by people in power.
camlok
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 10:21 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Yes it does.


And you are totally comfortable with your lies, as are so many A2Kers.

I'm not suggesting lies could be prohibited - what a ludicrous notion, Max. I have said that free speech comes with responsibility and central to that is NOT lying. That includes lying by omission. Which is another central feature of oh so many A2Kers.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 10:38 am
@maxdancona,
We see this thread quite differently Max
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 10:45 am
Anyone can lie. No one is restricting speech.

But free speech does not mean freedoms of consequences. Libel laws are a good example of possible legal consequences for spreading lies. Inciting violence is another good law that could penalize free speech.
camlok
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 11:02 am
@maporsche,
Quote:
No one is restricting speech.


You know that is a lie, maporsche. There are responsibilities inherent in the concept of free speech. Honesty is central to free speech. Avoiding the truth is a dandy example of lying - lying by omission.

Free speech means that nothing is off the table and yet so many of those who plump for these "grand American values" avoid the critical, important issues. That is childish and a dismissal of the quality and importance of free speech.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 11:06 am
@maporsche,
Sure MaPorsche. There are a few very narrow restrictions to free speech that I support. Let's not pretend that they aren't restrictions to free speech.

The libel laws are very hard to prove. You can say MaxDancona is mentally deficient... I wouldn't have any recourse since clearly you are stating an opinion rather than making a medical prognosis. Inciting violence is also very narrow. You can say "people with beards deserve to die" or even "Scotsmen deserve to die". That is protected speech. If you say "Let's meet up in the park and kill Scotsmen"... that would be actionable.

But freedom means outside of these very narrow exceptions you can express you beliefs right or wrong. You can state and argue your opinions no matter how offensive. You can state your feelings. You can support Nazism or feminism or socialism or any other ism.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 11:10 am
@camlok,
Quote:
Honesty is central to free speech.


Ironically, this is a lie.

In a free society, everyone gets do to choose for him or herself what their truth is. Your beliefs about what is true aren't for the government to decide or for the public to decide. Your beliefs are yours alone.

You can not mandate truth without creating a tyranny. Iran punishes people for lying. So does North Korea.

maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 11:11 am
@camlok,
False. Freedom of speech OF COURSE means freedom to lie, or spin, or massage, or muddle, or confuse, or redirect, or indeed, even ignore.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 11:13 am
@maporsche,
.... mmmm I could use a massage right now.
0 Replies
 
camlok
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 11:21 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Ironically, this is a lie.


As is often the case, you simply don't understand.

Quote:
In a free society, everyone gets do to choose for him or herself what their truth is. Your beliefs about what is true aren't for the government to decide or for the public to decide. Your beliefs are yours alone.


I never said anything to the contrary. Yet in this you illustrate that the US is exactly what you attempt to suggest other countries are.

Quote:
You can not mandate truth without creating a tyranny. Iran punishes people for lying. So does North Korea.


Yup, the US is a tyranny, deftly disguised as a free democracy. How many times has the US mandated truth, truths that you all know are vicious lies.

These vicious lies have just fairly recently seen the US slaughter hundreds of thousands, all without hardly a whimper from you brave, freedom loving folks.

You don't even seem to care when your governments murder their own.

And certainly not the slightest attempt at accountability. Dem or Repug, you all [most of you] just clap and want to move on, except for your whining about how these vicious US crimes have effected you poor people.

Freedom of Speech encompasses that a body act in an honest, forthright fashion. It is an ideal, one of the many ideals that the US has long pretended to hold dear but it has all been a ruse just to feed the propaganda mill.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 11:29 am
@camlok,
You are boring me again Camlok.

The point is that I will defend your right to say the things you say no matter how untrue, outlandish, offensive or just plain crazy I find them.
camlok
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 11:40 am
@maxdancona,
Your favorite trick, Max, when you find yourself up a stump. You ought to consider a new/different dog and pony show.

You are a shining example of that which I spoke of. Free speech demands honesty. From my experiences with you and your doublespeak I'm not at all sure if you are capable of that level of honesty.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 04:20 pm
@maporsche,
I'm not arguing from the extremes at all, just stating the obvious: freedom of speech doesn't trump peace and security. If a guest lecturer would potentially endanger the security of a university, that'd be a good reason not to invite him.

Quote:
some of the people who have been dis-invited are simply exposing a different set of ideas and methods but ideas and methods that are in the mainstream of politics

Like who?
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 04:32 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

I'm not arguing from the extremes at all, just stating the obvious: freedom of speech doesn't trump peace and security. If a guest lecturer would potentially endanger the security of a university, that'd be a good reason not to invite him.


It would be the protesters and/or counter-protesters who would potentially endanger the security. Some of the lecturers that I've heard about have offered to pay for security and get certification of security plans from local police. Ben Shapiro specifically comes to mind.

Quote:
some of the people who have been dis-invited are simply exposing a different set of ideas and methods but ideas and methods that are in the mainstream of politics

Like who?
[/quote]

Many on this list that I'd previously posted. I'm sure I could find more, but you could start here.
https://www.businessinsider.com/list-of-disinvited-speakers-at-colleges-2016-7
camlok
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2018 04:37 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I'm not arguing from the extremes at all, just stating the obvious: freedom of speech doesn't trump peace and security.


I knew it was a monstrous joke when you French gave the US the statue of liberty. You have no sense of what liberty means.

Are you plumping for a bureaucratic security position?
 

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