hightor
 
  3  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2020 01:34 pm
I had posted this piece by Russell Blackford on the global warming thread. I'm reposting it here because it touches on some of the points made by Dallek in "Swamp Fever" above.

Quote:
We live in a sharply polarized political and cultural environment in which it has become increasingly difficult to discuss urgent issues across the divides. With the emergence of purity policing and call-out culture, amplified by social media, it is difficult enough to conduct honest, civil conversations even with people who share most of our own opinions and values.

If we’re looking for an issue that tops all others in urgency, anthropogenic global warming is a good candidate. The warming atmosphere has begun to destabilize Earth’s climate patterns with unprecedented speed. Through the remainder of this century, the rate of change will be orders of magnitude too rapid for numerous life forms to adapt. It will be far too quick for human societies to adjust without immense dislocation and suffering. We’ve made only feeble attempts to retard or halt the process, though we’ve known about it for over three decades. Meanwhile, debate around climate change has become toxic and dysfunctional.

In this case, the toxin came mainly from the political Right. As the philosopher Neil Levy has argued, the scientific topic of global warming was intensely politicized by organizations with vested interests in unrestricted capitalism. These hired the notorious “merchants of doubt” to propagandize against respectable science—the doubt merchants set out to debunk the whole idea of global warming and climate change. There was no deep reason such radical science denial should have become a shibboleth for right-wing orthodoxy, but it’s now the case in many circles. There is evidence that many right-wing or conservative citizens view acceptance of climate science as the mark of an ideological enemy—an ill-intentioned person who cannot be trusted and should not be given a hearing.

Free-market opportunists and fanatics have the most to answer for in this instance—they have acted cynically to damage the social fabric—but left-wing environmentalists have not always been helpful to their own cause or to the planetary future. In that respect, another philosopher (and environmentalist), Simon Keller, expressed something of a mea culpa in a book chapter published in 2015. Keller points out that the revelation of dangerous global warming, backed up by more and more research, was not a surprise to environmentalists, who already possessed values and a worldview that made them receptive to the message. The facts about global warming fitted well with environmentalists’ pre-existing understanding of the world, which included a critique of indefinite economic growth. For this group of people, news about global warming even seemed like a vindication.

Clearly enough, it is more difficult for people to accept the consensus science of climate change if they begin with different values and a different worldview. If you doubt this, put yourself in their place for a moment. If you begin by valuing technological innovation and industrial development, with no special love of the wilderness (or “nature”) and with a deep distrust of government activity and international institutions, thirty years of findings from climate scientists will not seem at all like a vindication. The findings will fit badly with your pre-existing worldview, giving you a prima facie reason to reject them. They will seem alien and counterintuitive. You won’t be able to absorb the science without adjusting your view of the world. That is more frightening than it sounds, because it might open the door to other, unknown and unwelcome, adjustments. You will look upon the science with suspicion, and you might find the merchants of doubt reassuring and persuasive. Their claims will make intuitive sense.

Given such considerations, Keller thinks it would help the public discussion to highlight ways in which the facts of global warming could fit with a wider range of ideological views. This could mean putting on the table all options for responding to global warming and climate change—from just letting it all happen, to adapting to it, to countering it aggressively with geoengineering technology. In a sincere discussion between people with conflicting worldviews, we might even agree that some measures are unfortunate but necessary—to be adopted, that is, with a degree of reluctance rather than with environmentalist triumphalism.

The question here is how we can encourage people who are naturally suspicious of climate science to consider the science on its merits. Keller suggests, and I agree, that we’d be better off if we could think of those people as what most of them really are: decent individuals who are trying their best, from a different starting point than our own, to make sense of a perplexing world.

At this late stage, the situation with global warming is becoming desperate, and I doubt that a truly effective package of measures in response—if such could be identified—would now make any political or other group completely happy. Ten years ago, I would have considered some measures beyond the pale of serious consideration. By now, however, we need to talk honestly with minimal rancor, and without delay, about every genuine option, however distasteful it might seem. That includes but is not limited to carbon taxes, stronger international institutions, greater use of nuclear power, adaptation measures, and research into the science of geoengineering.

Climate change is an issue of the highest priority. More broadly, however, public discussion on many issues has become toxic. Discussion becomes toxic once some participants will not even listen to their opponents and critics, whom they view as untrustworthy, fundamentally bad people. Some of our opponents and critics might indeed be avaricious, opportunistic, crooked, or worse; in that case, they deserve little respect. But most are good people who legitimately disagree with us. Many of them have interests and experiences that are worth considering. Some might bring important parts of the truth.


If you distrust government, are suspicious of academia, dismissive of tree-huggers, believe strongly in the corrective power of markets — well, yes, I can definitely see why you'd be skeptical about anthropogenic global warming.
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2020 01:43 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
His conclusions are hardly unreasonable

His conclusions are the bullshit.
Quote:
Perhaps the biggest change of the Trump era is the approach of Republican leaders. In the past, they indulged these theories but never really espoused them. Today, elective officeholders embrace them openly, in the face of explicit counterevidence from the government they purport to run. National security officials have repeatedly warned in recent weeks that Ukraine did not meddle in the 2016 election and that those who repeat the claim are advancing pro-Russian propaganda. Yet most Republican members of Congress now seem to believe this theory

Those intelligence agencies were weaponized and are doing CYA. It is just more cover up by a corrupt administrations holdovers. He just spins it to make the truth disappear blaming the GOP for things the general public can obviously see are true, and he intends to cover up. Opinion with bias and motives having little or nothing to do with proven fact.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2020 01:46 pm
@revelette3,
Quote:
What is your meaning of the word "elitist" and how does it apply to Buttigieg?
I presume her charge rests on who he accepts or solicits as donors and his prior work history. Absolutely fine to point to both those things and they raise concerns with others outside the Sanders camp.

But I wanted to point to that term you have in quotations, "elitist".

How and why people use this term is always of interest but perhaps particularly right now where it has broad usage on left and right. It is a key term in populist rabble rousing, of course, but it is easily hijacked by others and used disingenuously. Yesterday I pointed out how Netanyahu's charge that he's being attacked by "elites" is Goebbels-worthy as there's surely no one in Israeli political life who better represents the thing that Netanyahu himself.

A bit closer to home, I thought again about such usage when georgeob mentioned that he'd enjoyed time in the Redwoods with Antonin Scalia. This is a somewhat secretive crowd, clearly, but if Scalia (I presume with SC Marshall's Service protection) is kicking about we can gain a pretty good notion of who else might be numbered in this crowd year to year (and what levels of security are likely to be in place). And on the same point, I can recall george sharing that he'd been in Cheney's office a couple of times (he can correct my memory if I have that wrong but I don't).

And yet, george is more than happy to use the term 'elite' as if they are the folks sitting in little offices in university graduate studies departments or acting in films rather than george himself and those others chumming about under the beautiful big trees.

The serious point here is that anyone using the term "elites" ought to be challenged when they use it. It is not that the term is meaningless or without value but rather that uses are very frequently uninformed or myopic or knowingly propagandist.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2020 01:47 pm
@revelette3,
Quote:
What is your meaning of the word "elitist" and how does it apply to Buttigieg?


He's a multi-lingual Joyce-quoting Rhodes scholar — obviously he should have attended a community college or maybe a trade school. HVAC is a great field to get into.

Quote:
What do you mean by "gun-toting war guy"?


Yeah, like Gabbard, he's a goddamn military veteran. Obviously, as an elitist" he should never have volunteered to put his life on the line with common soldiers.

Quote:
Do you have evidence he is a racist?


His city is the only one in the entire country where there's friction between the police department and the minority community. Obviously it's because he's an unrepentant racist. And like Sanders, he once even stated that "all lives matter".
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2020 01:48 pm
@BillW,
Quote:
Republicans alone created Citizen's United
Yup.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2020 01:50 pm
@coldjoint,
Quote:
Those intelligence agencies were weaponized...

You mean "demonized".
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2020 01:52 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
You mean "demonized".

No, I do not. Brennan is proven liar and under investigation, and Comey is a proven liar.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2020 01:55 pm
@hightor,
Don't forget the Regligious Right hightor. They are the highest degree of anti-science because:

1. Only god has the power to change climate.
2. They are the largest organized "Conspiracy Theorist". Their entire being is based on unfounded conspiracies (myths) that are miraculous, impossible myths and believed.
3. Ultra rich adding zero to society at large.
4. Against science from their beginning because it has the audacity to prove beyond any acceptable argument the earth is older than 5,000+ years and not the center of the universe.

Being against unprecedented fast Climate Change is just a minor thing in their distorted lives!

Finally, more people have been killed in wars under the guise of "Jesus" than any other reason; ie, right wing Christianity is the most immoral enterprise the world has ever seen. This is at the feet of the most peaceful, liberal, moral person this world has ever known.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2020 02:01 pm
@hightor,
You have attractive fangs.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2020 02:23 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
It appears you had some nits for breakfast.

Nits and grits!

I think the person was trying to push the "not a dime's worth of difference between the two parties" line. It is true that some corporations will donate to both parties. Sometimes a particular lawmaker in charge of a pivotal committee will attract money from both sides. Other times corporations engage in damage control — maybe an energy company will try to buff up its environmental credentials by backing something innocuous, like supporting research associated with hydrogen cells or donating land for a nature reserve. But most lobbyists are fixated on getting the biggest bang for their buck and playing one party off against the other is pretty effective. As far as I know, however, the Democratic Party has never engaged in anything quite as blatant as Tom De Lay's K Street Project!

0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 08:55 am
The D candidates came out uniformly against the assassination.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 09:09 am
@revelette3,
Nice!
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 09:32 am
@Lash,
The most inconceivable aspect of this recent problem in the middle east is that other nations and communities in the world often fail to perceive that American imperialism and domination is a moral duty and an over-arching right established by God.
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 09:46 am
@blatham,
Manifest Destiny, baby!! Go God!
Next: CANADA! (You know, after Iran, Iraq, Turkey, those pesky places.)

I’m so proud of our bedfellows Saudi Arabia and Israel—the good guys.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  0  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 11:37 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

The most inconceivable aspect of this recent problem in the middle east is that other nations and communities in the world often fail to perceive that American imperialism and domination is a moral duty and an over-arching right established by God.

......and, led by the great and mighty Narcissist!
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 11:41 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
The D candidates came out uniformly against the assassination.

Progressives always side with terrorists and evil dictators against America.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 11:49 am
@BillW,
Quote:
......and, led by the great and mighty Narcissist!

Obama was also a narcissist. The difference is Obama tore down the country and our new narcissist is restoring it.
RABEL222
 
  0  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 02:01 pm
@coldjoint,
Don't get all excited guy. He didn't start this war for you. Its for those who were undecided how to vote. Its just an election move by Trump.
coldjoint
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 02:02 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:
He didn't start this war for you.

He did not start a war.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 02:10 pm
@coldjoint,
Quote:
Obama was also a narcissist.

Sporting an outsized ego is not equivalent to exhibiting narcissism.
0 Replies
 
 

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