Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 12:16 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Lenin wasted no time in outlawing all then existing Labor Unions in his emerging Bolshevik state. Bismarck took a more subtle, effective, and lasting approach by nationalizing the various trade unions and giving them a (limited) voice in corporate governance.
I'm not sure why you compare Lenin to Bismarck.

However, Bismarck created the foundation of the German welfare state with his health insurance (1883), accident insurance (1884) and pension insurance (1889). He didn't nationalise the unions, but with his "Anti-Socialist Laws" (Sozialistengesetze, officially Gesetz gegen die gemeingefährlichen Bestrebungen der Sozialdemokratie, approximately "Law against the public danger of Social Democratic endeavours") socialist, social democratic, communist associations, assemblies and writings were forbidden.
Four small trade unions, which had committed themselves to party-political neutrality and thus distanced themselves from the SPD, were not banned. Other smaller unions, especially all Christian ones, were quick to catch up in order to secure their organisational survival.

In the late 19th century, the old state power was relatively helpless against the new forces of the working class. Bismarck oscillated between repression and attention and finally opted for both: socialist law and social insurance were the whip and carrot of Bismarck's domestic policy.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 12:24 pm
Back on the Bolshvick kick. Sigh. Oh well.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 12:33 pm
Aisha Sharna
@SharnaAisha
·
13h
If billionaires were really sooooo scared of Elizabeth Warren,

1. They wouldn’t be donating to her

2. She wouldn’t be promoted by CNN & MSNBC

3. Top Democrats & Think Tanks would have “Stop Warren” meetings

🚫 Don't fall in the fake populist establishment trap AGAIN 🚫
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 12:37 pm
@edgarblythe,
The Bolsheviks took power in Russia in November 1917, Bismarck main alles were the National Liberals and especially the Free Conservative Party (Bismarck died in 1894, the Bolsheviks were formed as an own party in 1912)
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 12:47 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
As you noted may have noted I was referring to the approaches nations of various nations to the management or oversight of labor unions, and to Olivier5's suggestion that the suppression of labor unions was unique to Fascist governments. I noted that was not the case, and that socialist/Communist governments systematically did that as well. I threw in the reference to Bismarck to note a more enlightened and lasting approach to that issue by an otherwise somewhat authoritarian government.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 12:54 pm
@georgeob1,
I agree that totalitarian states, once established, have strong similarities whatever the official ideology they dress themselves in, but that's almost trivial in a way.

If you look at fascism and communism as historical social movements, before their rise to power in the short sequence of 1917, 1921 and 1933 (in Russia, Italy and Germany respectively), if you focus on their genesis in the years before, you can clearly see that Mussolini's fascism is a counter-proposal to Italian socialism of the early 20th century, a strategy to steal the thunder of socialism among the Italian masses and replace it with raw nationalism. And Mussolini had learnt mass politics in the socialist party, as an agitator and editor. You also see that Hitler got his ideas of what a mass popular movement united behind one ideology could do, by watching communist demonstrations and strikes in Vienna... He copy-pasted the communist agit-prop rule book at the service of an explicitly anti-communist cause. German communists and socialists were the first guests in the first concentration camps circa 34. Hitler was financed by German industrialists in order to break the communist party. Same pattern in Italy, though less violent.

So fascism is historically both an ennemy of communism, and its right-wing copycat in terms of mass movement techniques. This is explicit in many writings of the time, e.g. in Technique of the Coup d'Etat by Malaparte.

The idea I was talking about is that the fall of communism was in a perverse way bad news for liberal democracy. It is based on the idea that a monopoly of power, even at a global level -- such as the US becoming the sole superpower in 1989/90 -- is always risky in the sense that it encourages overreach and ubris on the side of the dominant power. And in effect, the 90's were the golden years of deregulation and the very moment when inequalities start to rise in the US. As if the boogyman of the revolution being tamed, capitalism could now truly endulge and inequality of power distribution in society could increase and increase, now unfettered by any worry about the fate of the unwashed masses.


hightor
 
  3  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 01:00 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Are you looking for a "safe space" here on A2K where you will be spared the discomforts associated with disagreement of opposing views of issues being discussed?

No "discomfort" is experienced, georgeob1. I've battled it out with people on both sides. I'll repeat, my comment was specifically addressed to someone who shows up on a thread devoted to the discussion of issues concerning "progressives" and complains that people are discussing issues concerning "progressives". I wouldn't go on the "Monitoring Trump" thread and complain that there was too much discussion about #45 — surely you can understand that.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 01:00 pm
Bringing in the Bolsheviks on a progressive thread is much like trying to juxtapose Sanders with Trump. as some are trying to do.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 01:24 pm
@hightor,
If you annoyed me as much as it appears Baldimo annoyed you, I would use IGNORE.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 01:26 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Olivier5's suggestion that the suppression of labor unions was unique to Fascist governments. 

I never said that. Never thought it was true either.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 01:31 pm
@Olivier5,
Technique of the Coup d'Etat by Malaparte... written in 1929?, in which the author, then a young fascist, explains that Hitler is too soft and 'feminine' for trying the way of elections rather than revolution, and should follow the example of real men, real revolutionaries like Trosky and Mussolini...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 01:42 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Then there are New Zealand and Switzerland.

The question is can their model work in much larger and more diverse nations. I think not.
I don't get why you mention Switzerland as a 4th in your list of "truly free nations left standing"- the Swiss government has been a coalition of the four major political parties since 1959, always with a conservative dominance, since a couple of years even more to the right ( Swiss People's Party)

I didn't think that you would include the Swiss-EU free trade and bilateral treaties as being "truly economically free". Good!

It might be the narrow-minded European view, but though Switzerland Switzerland is a small, it is a very diverse country, not only because of the four official languages or geographically.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 02:05 pm
@oralloy,
Nuh-uh.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 02:09 pm
@Olivier5,
Thanks. Interesting comments. I agree about the duality of the relationship between Fascism and Communism, in that they have been both historically pitted against one another and, at the same time, mimic one another in their tyrannical totalitarianism.

Your point about the effects of the fall of the Soviet Empire on the Liberal (in the traditional sense of the word) capitalist Democracies is also interesting. I believe there was likely some hubris afoot in the Western World after that event, and that, arguably a door was opened to some perhaps retrogressive excesses in free market capitalism. However, I can see little factual evidence in the way of any large scale retreat from various social welfare policies on the part of the European Asian or American liberal democracies associated with the fall of the Soviet Empire. Instead I see only a continuation of their historical cycles left and right on the part of these governments. Europe retreated a bit from the excesses of Social Democracy, starting with Sweden in 1995 and continuing through the reform in Germany in 2005 and France soon afterwards. The United States had a slight swing to the right earlier in the 1980s under Reagan, and now 30+ years later may be seeing, under Trump, a smaller swing back from the leftward trends that followed Reagan. However all of these swings were well within the historical bounds of the post WWII period and none is particularly associated with the fall of the Soviet Empire.

InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 02:20 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
The Zionists have never been liberal. They may have liberal tendencies among themselves, like the kibbutzim movement, but their endeavor, a "homeland for the Jews," has always been based on European nationalistic ideologies of the 18th century with religious mythologies co-opted for nationalistic purposes as the justification, e.g. "Israel is our birthright." Nationalism is not liberal. Nationalism is patently rightist.
Actially, one of the earliest Zionist (correctly, he was a precursor to what is nowadays called Zionism) was Moses (Moshe) Hess (1812 – 1875).

He belonged to the early socialists and was a mastermind of the Zionists.
With his works Hess was one of the early socialists in Germany. "Holy History of Mankind" (Die heilige Geschichte der Menschheit) was not only Hess’s first large-scale expression of socialism, but also the first expression of socialism written in Germany (1837).

Moses Hess's 1862 work "Rome and Jerusalem" (Rom und Jerusalem, argued for the Jews to settle in Palestine as a means of settling the national question.

Hess laid the foundation of the historic Jewish "labour" (sozialistichen) movements of Eastern and Central Europe.

The understanding of socialisation developed by him played a central role in Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels' later theory formation. His activities for the left newspaperRheinische Zeitung, the left newspaper Deutsche-Brüsseler-Zeitung and the occasional joint work on the manuscripts Die deutsche Ideologie connected him with Marx. Hess allegedly introduced both Marx and Engels to socialism and communism.

The German Social democracy and the SPD have Jewish origins since the 1860's.


Yes, there are liberal tendencies within Zionism, for "the Jews." The crux of Zionist ideology is Jewish nationalism, however, Hess' settling of the national question, as you stated.

You are conflating Zionist nationalist ideology and Jewish involvement in socialist ideological development. They are not one and the same.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 02:24 pm
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:

The last few posts on this page highlight the problem with modern day politics. You guys want to live in an echo chamber and have your beliefs reinforced instead of challenged. It's pretty sad and pathetic, a bunch of grown people standing around with their fingers in their ears yelling "la la la la la la" over and over again to block out opposing opinions.


So, what are your opposing opinions to these last few posts you refer to?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 02:30 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Switzerland appears as in the top 5 of virtually every list of economically free countries. I doubt it is as diverse as you suggest.
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 02:37 pm
@Baldimo,
I suspect you meant this as an indictmentbof libersl since thats your. usual schtiick. You do realize. I trust that isrepresentative of coservative closed mindedness and ideologically driven blindness (maybe. Ltoo maybe not)
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 02:38 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

I suspect you meant this as an indictmentbof libersl since thats your. usual schtiick. You do realize. I trust that isrepresentative of coservative closed mindedness and ideologically driven blindness (maybe. Ltoo maybe not)


Not sure what the hell you meant to express but it appears to be little more than "I know you are but what am I?"
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2019 03:33 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
economically free countries
Throat clearing sound.
 

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