Progressives (Liberals)

This is about Israel but also about the emergence of a connected set of rightwing authoritarian regimes who wish to tear down the liberal world older, thus highly relevant to progressives' goals.

Some of you will be familiar with Kagan, I expect, and some not. He's an historian, very bright, and often included in the "neoconservative" camp (he was cofounder of the PNAC). I've been a fan of the fellow since hearing him talk about 15 years ago on his experiences in Sweden (or Switzerland) when he got seriously ill. His ideas about national healthcare systems was profoundly changed by that experience. He left the Republican party in 2016, describing Trump as a fascist. His opinions on modern day Israel and Netanyahu are not what one might expect. I hope folks read this.

Quote:

In the growing confrontation between the liberal world order and its anti-liberal nationalist and authoritarian opponents, which side does Israel want to be on? The question would have been absurd even a decade ago, when Israelis still regarded themselves as members in good standing in the liberal world. But in recent years, Israeli foreign policy has been trending in a decidedly anti-liberal direction.
Since about the middle of 2015, the Israeli government has: embraced Hungary’s avowedly “illiberal” Prime Minister Viktor Orban; worked to forge close ties with Poland’s ruling Law and Justice party, despite its limitations on civil liberties and legislation outlawing public discussion of Poland’s role in the Holocaust; warmly embraced Brazil’s right-wing nationalist leader Jair Bolsonaro; provided a state visit for President Rodrigo Duterte of the Philippines, who once likened himself to Adolf Hitler; worked consistently to woo Russian President Vladimir Putin; offered a 25-year contract to a Chinese state-owned firm to manage the port of Haifa, which has often hosted the U.S. Sixth Fleet; and provided consistently strong support for the military dictatorship in Egypt, including lobbying the U.S. Congress on its behalf, as well as supporting the authoritarian sheikhdoms of the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia. (Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, notably, stood up for Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman following the October 2018 murder of Jamal Khashoggi, a Saudi journalist and Post contributing columnist.)
Netanyahu, who faces a difficult reelection vote next Tuesday, insists he is only leading Israel out of international isolation, but the common denominator among all these new partners has been an avowed hostility toward liberalism and the liberal world order, and the prime minister himself has become something of a “central figure in the global non-liberal camp,” as Israeli commentators have noted. Yoram Hazony, a conservative Israeli thinker and one-time aide to Netanyahu, has frankly proclaimed Israel’s solidarity with those he calls the “holdouts against universal liberalism” in Hungary, Poland, France, Italy, Britain and elsewhere. All face a struggle against what he calls the U.S.-led “liberal empire.” ...

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@blatham,

blatham wrote:

I take Edgar at his word, snood. I just can't quite get my head around how that has happened.

I never ever watch network Fox News. I sometimes watch their local channel, which is tooled for the locals and is slightly more subtle about their prejudice.

When Limbaugh first came on the radio I listened every day, because I thought I had to find all the holes in his statements. Then I realized he would go on forever if he had an audience and did my part tuning him out - long ago.

I see Hannity's name on occasion but have never felt motivated to follow up on it.

Anybody who calls me a liar can kiss it.

1 Reply

@snood,

snood wrote:

Never watched Fox. Okey-dokey.

I've made it clear many times that I get my news from the MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour (whatever they call it now, the name changes every few years) on PBS, along with various other associated programs like Washington Week in Review.

When someone says that I listen to Fox News, I regard that as evidence that they are mentally impaired.

I'm not saying that Fox is a bad source of news, mind you. It's just not my source of news.

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@blatham,

I've been avoiding FAUX and Hannity too, for reasons related to TV screen preservation. My first reaction when I see them is to throw the TV out the window, but my wife wouldn't like that.

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@edgarblythe,

OK. Thanks.

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@blatham,

Your Israel post highlights another facit of what I have been saying for a long time.

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@Olivier5,

I don't blame you. I actually haven't had my tv turned on for five years or so. For big stuff (world cup, election nights, the odd golf game) I'll join family to watch but that's about it. Years ago, I watched Fox a lot to follow what they were up to. Likewise Limbaugh. Now I follow them through those who continue to monitor their content and through quality writing on them.

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I don't have to follow conservatives too closely to know what they are thinking, because it rarely shifts from one decade to the next. And following what they do in the news and as politicians is more than sufficient to know they have to be resisted as fiercely as possible. I get down on the Democrats because they are slowly being beguiled by the easy money that allures them to speak with forked tongues. Promise progressive gains, if only incrementally, but in the end cave to neoliberalism and the conservative agenda. Meanwhile, the planet is beginning to stink like rotting garbage.

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@Olivier5,

If you notice, I said that she is my candidate right now.

But, She did more than “tick the box” once; if absolutely necessary, I can show you the receipts that show she tried to capitalize on her ancestry. I don’t really care about that.

I care that when asked if she ever used her drop of native blood to further her career, she denied it. I care about honesty.

I don’t think I have to be in the vanguard of political correctness to care about honesty.

And, she is still my candidate.

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@edgarblythe,

Sure. But as Kagan said, ten years ago no one would have imagined the present state of affairs in Israel, the US and in Europe. I think that's so. The worries I had seen expressed were mainly related to the diminishment of national autonomy through an increasingly robust range of corporate power and influence. But it doesn't necessarily follow that such a shift would lead to such a dynamic or push towards purposeful chaos as we see now. Complicated stuff.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I've been avoiding FAUX and Hannity too, for reasons related to TV screen preservation. My first reaction when I see them is to throw the TV out the window, but my wife wouldn't like that.

Avoiding Fox and their ilk is one thing. I avoid them 99% of the time. I was highlighting the claims of NEVER hearing or seeing them. Strains credulity.

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@blatham,

It's important to preserve one's own mind from pollution. I don't follow Trump for the same reason. Let him tweet a million, I don't need to care. Once in a while there's some funny stuff like the altered Dorian map, and I get it from friends or other news. I'm not missing anything essential.

"They can't say the truth on TV: too many people are watching."
-- Coluche

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@blatham,

Quote:

ten years ago no one would have imagined the present state of affairs in Israel, the US and in Europe.

That's overstating the case, I think. That the capitalist world would become increasingly authoritarian was I think predicted by Immanuel Wallerstein in the early 1990, based on the disappearance of the USSR and thus of any alternative to the 'western model'. As for Israel, they have been slowly radicalizing since 1967 and the occupation of Palestinian territories, which placed them in a position of benefiting from the misery of another people.

In turn, the evolution of Israel towards just another militaristic nation bent on dominating others was predicted by Albert Einstein as the most probable long term result of the creation of a state of Israel.

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The last few posts on this page highlight the problem with modern day politics. You guys want to live in an echo chamber and have your beliefs reinforced instead of challenged. It's pretty sad and pathetic, a bunch of grown people standing around with their fingers in their ears yelling "la la la la la la" over and over again to block out opposing opinions.

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@Baldimo,

That's because those opposing opinions are just nuts.

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@Baldimo,

Quote:

You guys want to live in an echo chamber

Not listening to buffoons has nothing to do with wanting to be in an echo chamber. I welcome contradiction but you guys are either making noise or just lying. What's the use of that?

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

That's overstating the case, I think. That the capitalist world would become increasingly authoritarian was I think predicted by Immanuel Wallerstein in the early 1990, based on the disappearance of the USSR and thus of any alternative to the 'western model'.

Interesting observation. Just what, in your view have been the recent political forces behind this renewed "authoritarianism"? My impression is that many on the left (I have to be careful on my selection of terms here to avoid Blatham's wrath.) see Trump as authoritarian (perhaps based on his manner). However the policies he advocates and implements are generally far more free market & laissez faire than are the truly authoritarian bureaucratic models for government control of markets and social movements being implemented so assiduously by Liberals & Progressives across the Western World.

I do agree that the capitalist world is indeed becoming more authoritarian, involving greater government control of the administration of an expanding range of market sectors, generally overseen by bureaucracies -- all of which do indeed limit the freedom and initiative of individual citizens.

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@Baldimo,

Quote:

It's pretty sad and pathetic, a bunch of grown people standing around with their fingers in their ears yelling "la la la la la la" over and over again to block out opposing opinions.

What's really pathetic is the need of some people to disrupt a thread which is clearly labeled "Progressives (Liberals)" in order to spout their self-described "opposing opinions". No one cares about your opposing opinions — this thread is for us to air our opposing opinions. Sounds like you need to see your beliefs reinforced so I'd suggest you hang out at one of the creeper freeper sites where you won't have to suffer the indignity of seeing your preconceived notions continually exposed and held up to ridicule.

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@georgeob1,

Inter alia, he's adopted anti-trade policies and told US companies to get out of China, promoted racism and xenophobia amongst his followers, been sadic in his public treatment on others (including average folks, not just politicians), and chaotic in his management style.

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@hightor,

Quote:

...this thread is for us to air our opposing opinions

By "our" do you mean "progressives or liberals" (your choice)?

Fortunately or unfortunately this forum isn't set up that way. I'm pretty sure there are forums where participation can be restricted by the originating "owner" of a sub-group.

So I suggest you hang out in one of those forums where your sensibilities won't get banged about by opposing opinions.

In the alternative, there is always the ignore feature.

This whole idea of hijacking or trashing a thread is pretty childish unless it involves a topic like "How do I get started with needlepoint" that is beset by political comments.

What you and edgar want is never going to happen so you are only displaying petulance.

Use IGNORE

1 Reply

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