Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Aug, 2019 07:30 pm
A really nice day for progressives on Twitter. Liz Cheney (spits) attacked Liz Warren’s nuclear policy and Bernie showed up.

Bernie Sanders
@BernieSanders
·
6h
Taking national security advice from a Cheney has already caused irreparable damage to our country. We don't need any more, thanks.
Quote Tweet

Liz Cheney
@Liz_Cheney
· Jul 31
Key question for Elizabeth Warren @ewarren today - which American cities and how many American citizens are you willing to sacrifice with your policy of forcing the US to absorb a nuclear attack before we can strike b
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Aug, 2019 07:51 pm

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
@AOC
·
5h
MFW *Liz Cheney* of all people tries to offer foreign policy takes, as if an entire generation hasn’t lived through the Cheneys sending us into war since we were kids:

Liz Cheney
@Liz_Cheney
· Jul 31
Key question for Elizabeth Warren @ewarren today - which American cities and how many American citizens are you willing to sacrifice with your policy of forcing the US to absorb a nuclear attack before we can strike back?
edgarblythe
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 2 Aug, 2019 09:02 pm
https://scontent.fhou1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67504721_2568667866518747_6034693294447919104_n.png?_nc_cat=103&_nc_eui2=AeFG2Ju5FolY6EBp5vi0yhG6m23DgDMWZB_w0lk2pbmToYCfKsUPL9fi7U-0TolsyXiAhQECikpcmn_2SYBWkiU7l_zkbs3QDT1egMSug3cRnw&_nc_oc=AQmGJVJNALxQJp9XjeWvtajUgcl-cEWSK_TKKQO8Rbo2uOFu34T_HWqSAltA0eGvw30MC2gttwAz-SZZXnGCxX9j&_nc_ht=scontent.fhou1-2.fna&oh=407f4ad893299d5cd1f7ca5e80ec288a&oe=5DA0BF9F
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Aug, 2019 10:59 pm
@Lash,
@Liz_Cheney wrote:
Key question for Elizabeth Warren @ewarren today - which American cities and how many American citizens are you willing to sacrifice with your policy of forcing the US to absorb a nuclear attack before we can strike back?

That's interesting. What did Warren have to say about nuclear war policy?
0 Replies
 
Below viewing threshold (view)
MontereyJack
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 01:20 am
@Lash,
No First Use and the threat of Mutual Assured Destruction kept nuclear war from breaking out for three quarters of a century Liz's old man lied us into the quagmire of America's longest war, now Liz and Trump's "We've got em, why can't we use em" and unilateral breaking f treaties, are getting dangerously close towarmongering us into finally starting one. In which EVERYBODY will lose. There will be NO winners. Let Liz join Dick in richly deserved oblivion. And let Trump join them there.





we've Got Em, Why can't We Use Em
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 02:01 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
No First Use and the threat of Mutual Assured Destruction kept nuclear war from breaking out for three quarters of a century

That is incorrect. MAD alone kept nuclear war from breaking out. There was no "no first use".

The lack of any "no first use" policy kept the Soviets from overrunning our allies with a massive conventional force.

This Warren goon wants to force America to abandon our allies (much like the Democrats once forced us to abandon South Vietnam).

I suppose that's par for the course when it comes to leftists. It's a good thing for humanity that Trump is going to be reelected in 2020.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 02:30 am
@georgeob1,
And yet I said:

Quote:
One thing that would surely help is to get a president in the White House who actually believes CC is a big problem, and wants to do something serious about it.

You guys need to get off your denial train of thoughts and recognize the magnitude of the problem. Electing a guy who makes of CC a priority is thus a first step in the right direction.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 03:14 am
@Olivier5,
The most important thing is to elect a president who will not violate the Second Amendment. If you want me to vote for an environmentalist, find me an environmentalist who respects our Constitution.

It would also be useful if the candidate is a Republican since any Democratic candidate will lose the election.

Further, if you want people to recognize the magnitude of a problem, get some credible scientists to document that we have a problem. Fraudulent science just doesn't impress.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 06:56 am
Conservatives Are Hiding Their ‘Loathing’ Behind Our Flag

The molten core of right-wing nationalism is the furious denial of America’s unalterably multiracial, multicultural national character.

Quote:
The Republican Party under Donald Trump has devolved into a populist cult of personality. But Mr. Trump won’t be president forever. Can the cult persist without its personality? Does Trumpist nationalism contain a kernel of coherent ideology that can outlast the Trump presidency?

At a recent conference in Washington, a group of conservatives did their level best to promote Trumpism without Trump (rebranded as “national conservatism”) as a cure for all that ails our frayed and faltering republic. But the exclusive Foggy Bottom confab served only to clarify that “national conservatism” is an abortive monstrosity, neither conservative nor national. Its animating principle is contempt for the actually existing United States of America, and the nation it proposes is not ours.

Bitter cultural and political division inevitably leads to calls for healing reconciliation under the banner of shared citizenship and national identity. After all, we’re all Americans, and our fortunes are bound together, like it or not.

Yet the question of who “we” are as “a people” is the central question on which we’re polarized. High-minded calls to reunite under the flag therefore tend to take a side and amount to little more than a demand for the other side’s unconditional surrender. “Agree with me, and then we won’t disagree” is more a threat than an argument.

The way the nationalist sees it, liberals always throw the first punch by “changing things.” When members of the “Great American Middle” (to use the artfully coded phrase of Senator Josh Hawley of Missouri to refer to nonurban whites) lash out in response to the provocations of progressive social change, they see themselves as patriots defending their America from internal attack.

The attackers — the nature-denying feminists, ungrateful blacks, babbling immigrants, ostentatiously wedded gays — bear full responsibility for any damage wrought by populist backlash, because they incited it by demanding and claiming a measure of equal freedom. But they aren’t entitled to it, because the conservative denizens of the fruited plain are entitled first to a country that feels like home to them. That’s what America is. So the blame for polarizing mutual animosity must always fall on those who fought for, or failed to prevent, the developments that made America into something else — a country “real Americans” find hard to recognize or love.

The practical implication of the nationalist’s entitled perspective is that unifying social reconciliation requires submission to a vision of national identity flatly incompatible with the existence and political equality of America’s urban multicultural majority. That’s a recipe for civil war, not social cohesion.

Yoram Hazony, author of “The Virtue of Nationalism” and impresario of the “national conservatism” conference, argued that America’s loss of social cohesion is because of secularization and egalitarian social change that began in the 1960s. “You throw out Christianity, you throw out the Torah, you throw out God,” Mr. Hazony warned, “and within two generations people can’t tell the difference between a man and a woman. They can’t tell the difference between a foreigner and a citizen. They can’t tell the difference between this side of the border and the other side of the border.”

“The only way to save this country, to bring it back to cohesion,” he added, “is going to be to restore those traditions.”

Mr. Hazony gave no hint as to how this might be peacefully done within the scope of normal liberal-democratic politics. “It’s not simple,” he eventually conceded. Mr. Hazony notably omitted to mention, much less to condemn, the atrocious cruelty of America’s existing nationalist regime. Indeed, roaring silence around our Trumpian reality was the conference’s most consistent and telling theme.

The incoherence of an American nationalism meant to “conserve” an imaginary past was not lost on everyone at the conference. Patrick Deneen, a political theorist at Notre Dame, pointed out that American nationalism has historically been a progressive project. The nationalism of Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson, he noted, arose as the United States began to establish itself as an imperial power of global reach. Building nations has always been about building armies, regimenting the population and centralizing political control.

Yuval Levin, the editor of National Affairs, similarly observed that nationalist projects meant to unite the diverse tribes and cultures of large territories generally involve a program of political mythmaking and the state-backed suppression of ancestral ethnic and community identities.

Mr. Levin suggested that a genuinely conservative nationalism, in the context of a vast national territory with an immense multiethnic population, would refrain from uprooting these traditions and communities and seek instead to preserve them in a vision of the nation as “the sum of various uneven, ancient, lovable elements,” because we are “prepared for love of country by a love of home.”

But what, today, do Americans call “home”? The next logical step would be to observe that the contemporary sum of rooted, lovable American elements includes the black culture of Compton, the Mexican culture of Albuquerque, the Indian culture of suburban Houston, the Chinese culture of San Francisco, the Orthodox Jewish culture of Brooklyn, the Cuban culture of Miami and the “woke” progressive culture of the college town archipelago, as well as the conservative culture of the white small town. But Mr. Levin, a gifted rhetorician who knew his audience, did not hazard this step.

Barack Obama claimed resounding victory in two presidential elections on the strength of a genuinely conservative conception of pluralistic American identity that embraced and celebrated America as it exists. Yet this unifying vision, from the mouth of a black president, primed the ethnonationalist backlash that put Mr. Trump in the White House.

The molten core of right-wing nationalism is the furious denial of America’s unalterably multiracial, multicultural national character. This denialism is the crux of the new nationalism’s disloyal contempt for the United States of America. The struggle to make good on the founding promise of equal freedom is the dark but hopeful thread that runs through our national story and defines our national character. It’s a noble, inspiring story, but the conservative nationalist rejects it, because it casts Robert E. Lee, and the modern defenders of his monuments, as the bad guys — the obstacles we must overcome to make our nation more fully, more truly American.

Without obstacles, there is no story. The rise of Trumpist ethnonationalism opened a new chapter, a new variation on the primal American theme, and its outcome will again define us. We must remember that it’s our story, that we write it — with our bodies, our money, our voices, our votes. And we must never lose the thread.

To reject pluralism and liberalizing progress is to reject the United States of America as it is, to heap contempt upon American heroes who shed blood and tears fighting for the liberty and equality of their compatriots. The nationalist’s nostalgic whitewashed fantasy vision of American national identity cannot be restored, because it never existed. What they seek to impose is fundamentally hostile to a nation forged in the defining American struggle for equal freedom, and we become who we are as we struggle against them.

Whether couched in vulgarities or professorial prose, reactionary nationalism is seditious, anti-patriotic loathing of America hiding behind a flag — our flag. We won’t allow it, because we know how to build a nation. We know how the American story goes: We fight; we take it back.

nyt/wilkinson
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 10:06 am
@MontereyJack,
Yeah, I don’t get anyone’s legitimate disagreement about Liz Warren’s plan. If I’m not mistaken, it’s been our default since WWII? Am I wrong?
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 10:08 am
https://youtu.be/KP_SraL9PPU
Bernie’s motivation. No wonder he resonates so deeply with me.
blatham
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 10:09 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Your definition of criminality is more lax than mine.
The word has a specific meaning, Edgar. But let's go with "corrupt".

A very real problem for you here is that if you truly deem all Republicans and most Dems as corrupt ("on the take") then you are left with President Sanders alone in the WH with almost no one around him who is anything other than a crook.

And you expect him to get what done?
blatham
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 10:11 am
@hightor,
I like that. And the final graph matches my notions. He's an amazing fellow.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 10:35 am
@hightor,
Quote:
Yuval Levin, the editor of National Affairs, similarly observed that nationalist projects meant to unite the diverse tribes and cultures of large territories generally involve a program of political mythmaking and the state-backed suppression of ancestral ethnic and community identities.
Yes. This is a very smart piece by Wilkinson.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  3  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 12:15 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
Yeah, I don’t get anyone’s legitimate disagreement about Liz Warren’s plan.

I disagree with selling out our allies.


Lash wrote:
If I’m not mistaken, it’s been our default since WWII? Am I wrong?

You are mistaken. Our default since WWII has been: if our allies are overrun with an unstoppable conventional army, we will nuke the aggressor country into oblivion.

That's what kept the Soviets from conquering Germany during the Cold War.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 04:27 pm
@blatham,
I posted the formula I thought would work a few pages back and I stand by it.
blatham
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 05:06 pm
@edgarblythe,
OK.
hightor
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 05:53 pm
@Lash,
Quote:
No wonder he resonates so deeply with me.

Sure it wasn't the Beethoven? Wink
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2019 06:35 pm
@hightor,
I teach ethos, logos, and pathos. The schmaltzy crescendo distracted from his words.

It’s always what he’s saying—and the hard, cold stats, compadre.

0 Replies
 
 

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