Progressives (Liberals)

I don't see the progressives instituting authoritarian measures. They would not need to, once it is demonstrated, by doing, the benefits derived.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

blatham wrote:
I think we're all agreed that rapid reduction in greenhouse gases is crucial. We're in a very dangerous period but one those potential dangers is the temptation towards authoritarian solutions. I'd prefer that liberals do not become another version of the modern right. Thus my prior allusion to the guillotine.

I agree with your sentiment here with respect to authoritarian solutions. However I also have the very strong impression that most of these "authoritarian solutions" today come from progressives advocating expanded government bureaucratic control of broad areas of our lives. Individual freedom is more threatened threatened by the venality and chicken **** associated with increased government management of our lives and the even greater social and economic adverse side effects associated with it.

Judging individual people based on the largely superficial elements of their so called group identities also indirectly adds significantly to the fast growing authoritarianism of contemporary progressive values. The usual rationalization for this is enforced programs to "equalize opportunity (or outcomes) for the various groups without regard to the effects it has on among individuals of all groups. In the recent past they have been mostly bad, creating dependency instead of responsibility or achievement, and failing even to achieve their stated goals. Worse many have had truly destructive effects on the subcultures they were intended to aid. One of the best ways to destroy the people of any organization is to give them an excuse for their failures.

Individual people in all of the various groups and communities that so abound today often vary far more than do the largely nonsensical identities associated with these groups (protected or otherwise). The freedom (and associated responsibility) of individual people to live and improve their lives as they choose is , or should be the object .

The guillotine was the favored execution/extermination device of the radicals of the French Revolution, particularly under Robespierre. They were not conservatives, movement or otherwise.

I find it interesting that Republicans always ascribe violence and repression to progressives, when clearly the right is guilty of such tactics as we speak.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

The guillotine was the favored execution/extermination device of the radicals of the French Revolution, particularly under Robespierre. They were not conservatives, movement or otherwise.

Beheading machines were being used in Europe frequently and earlier. An illustration by Lucas Cranach dated 1539 details one.

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@blatham,

Quote:

I think we're all agreed that rapid reduction in greenhouse gases is crucial. We're in a very dangerous period but one those potential dangers is the temptation towards authoritarian solutions. I'd prefer that liberals do not become another version of the modern right. Thus my prior allusion to the guillotine.

I'd rather live in a dictatorship than die in a democracy. If democracies are unable to make the necessary choices for our survival, they betray humankind.

All this talk about incrementalism is just sloppy thinking. It's grounded on vague concepts (define "increment"...) and emotions, fear essentially. Such sloppy, fearful thinking is killing my children, and yours too if you got some.

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@georgeob1,

You and Blatham deserve one another. You like the sound of your own voice a little too much, and love to ponder about History and **** but you both come terribly short in terms of practical solutions.

History is not going to tell us what to do next. It's famously a lantern attached at the back of the traveler, illuminating the path behind but not the path ahead.

One thing that would surely help is to get a president in the White House who actually believes CC is a big problem, and wants to do something serious about it.

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@hightor,

Quote:

Even giants can stumble and lose their way. In such cases small steps are the safest way for them to get back on their feet and reorient themselves

That's streching the metaphor quite a bit... In real life you can't actually do baby steps to get back onto your feet. :-)

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When people are removed from the misery and very real life and death struggle, they think incrementalism is just dandy. When people are dying because they can’t afford medication, and when farmers’ crops are under water, and children are brain-damaged because of the poison in their drinking water, incrementalism is over.

And, it is ******* over. Period.

People who don’t vote for #MedicareForAll are satisfied with deaths due to healthcare. Period. We will all continue to see many more deaths individually directly because of lack of healthcare issues, and in larger groups due to the effects of global warming and our government’s dirty deals with Monsanto etc unless big, bold changes result from THIS election.

And, yes, Bernie Sanders is THE ONLY CANDIDATE who considers the current situation an emergency and will act accordingly. Get the stupid incremental jalopy off the road to make way for the ambulance.

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@blatham,

Bruni is a joker... There most probably will be a "credible toggle toward the center" for Warren. She already stated that she's no socialist. She used to vote republican way back. She's the pro-market, economically literate progressive. That's precisely at the center between do-nothing incrementalists and Bernites.

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@blatham,

Quote:

What do you imagine Bernie will be able to accomplish in the present environment? What levers can he pull that might change the dynamics of modern US politics? Fox is going to stick around. Russia and others will do their thing. The Koch brothers aren't about to quit. How does he get past the Senate if it remains in GOP hands (which it will unless there is a serious wave election)?

This question applies to all dem candidates. Are we to conclude that it's better to leave Trump in the White House, because boooh boooh we cannot do a thing until the Koch brothers die?

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

Are we to conclude that it's better to leave Trump in the White House, because boooh boooh we cannot do a thing until the Koch brothers die?

No, capturing the White House is still an important goal and a lot of things can be accomplished before the Koch brothers die. But realistically, simply electing a socialist president is not going to usher in the overthrow of a powerful capitalist state and all its institutions. Sanders will be forced to compromise, which will look like a betrayal to some of his supporters. A less radical approach might actually result in more actual progress.

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@hightor,

Quote:

A less radical approach might actually result in more actual progress.

I don't see any reason why it would. Progress is usually made by people who are not afraid, who dare to think big and take on important fights, even if those fights are hard to win.

It's not like bipartisanship had any credibility these days. It's a pipe dream when the country is so deeply divided. Middle-of-the-road thinking will achieve zilch. It's time to fight.

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Quote:

What do you imagine Bernie will be able to accomplish in the present environment? What levers can he pull that might change the dynamics of modern US politics? Fox is going to stick around. Russia and others will do their thing. The Koch brothers aren't about to quit. How does he get past the Senate if it remains in GOP hands (which it will unless there is a serious wave election)?

Something interesting happens when an honest leader rises in a society where millions of like-minded people have been desperately desiring to find one on the political landscape. No one can deny the change in American politics since Sanders stepped up.

We move like a living organism. We decided to send him on to the debate stage strong, asked each other to donate, and it resulted in 1.1 million in that 24 hours. More notable than that—70,000 of those donations were first time donors. Those are votes. We were the ones who helped Gravel qualify for the debate stage with money and number of unique donors— We did that—but the DNC changed the rules for him.

We are currently choosing a candidate to unseat Mitch McConnell and other powerful Republicans. As you can tell, we’re pretty damn pissed and very willing to put our asses in the street and our money on the table to make change. Many of us are supporting Tulsi in the same way as we did Gravel to keep her on the debate stage because she is a great foil for Kamala Harris.

Besides activism and cash, I hate to say it, but the effects of climate change are hitting some idiots now who are being forced to admit we have to change our status quo. Other idiots who are yelling hate for democrats can’t see a doctor or buy medication. Some other Hillary-haters who held their noses and voted for Trump won’t be able to do it again.

Anyone who wants trump voted out need to back Bernie. No matter who we put up against trump, trump will use open racism citing “the squad”, immigrants, “them”. The incrementalists are desperate to blend in with Trump to appeal to the racists, to the climate deniers—and progressives say no. Stop trying to camouflage yourselves to blend in with Republicans because what you become is a ******* Republican.

What we have are two corrupt conservative corporate businesses masked as political parties.

Only Bernie Sanders is hellbent on dismantling our morass and creating an livable environment where all people have a chance to flourish.

I believe this is the last chance we have to get off this train barreling to totalitarianism.

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@hightor,

Quote:

A less radical approach might actually result in more actual progress.

We have decades of proof that this is not true. The centrist incrementalists time is up.

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@Lash,

Quote:

We have decades of proof that this is not true.

We also have decades of proof that show things being accomplished over time — blatham provided a list of examples. But it is true that we don't have the luxury of time for addressing some of the problems we are facing.

Quote:

The centrist incrementalists time is up.

Then others will have to shoulder the burden. An electoral landslide might nudge things a bit but there will still be systemic inertia and judicial obstruction to deal with. Here's the thing; the people will make their voices heard. If they respond to the message of Sanders it will be obvious in the results of the primaries and he'll be well on his way. If we do some really rough calculations and break down the electorate there are maybe 30% hard-ass Republicans, maybe 35% enrolled Democrats, and the rest are semi-independents (who tend to vote for one of the parties but are not enrolled) and actual independents. Currently the support for Sanders among Democrats might be 30%. So we're still talking about a rather small proportion of the electorate as a whole. Does he have a message which can win over the rest of the party? We'll see. Will it play in the country at large? We'll see. If people don't respond to his radical prescriptions it will be obvious, showing up in opinion polls and eventually at the ballot box. Then what do we do? Harangue the voters for making the wrong choice?

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Who do you think can get more votes from independent voters: a registered democrat, or an independent?

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

Who do you think can get more votes from independent voters: a registered democrat, or an independent?

It would depend on the quality of the candidate wouldn't it? Independents often vote for major party candidates. And enrolled party members have been known to vote for independents.

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@Olivier5,

The person a Democrat or independent believes will meaningfully address their needs is the one they’ll vote for.

I’m an independent, and thought I’d have to register as a D temporarily, but my state is open primary. Trust me, we make sure potential Bernie voters realize what their states require to vote for him.

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@hightor,

Quote:

@Edgar - [incrementalism is] not inherently "liberal" or "conservative".

I should have caught this before. It's an interesting corner in all this and I hope Edgar attends to the point. Judging from the use of the term by Edgar and Lash, "incrementalism" has gained an odd meaning within the ideological world they inhabit where it has come mean to something like "a corrupted and cowardly version of liberalism". I suppose "neoliberalism" or "faux liberalism" would be synonymous in this use of language.

But such use of incrementalism does their thinking no favors. It confuses rather than clarifies. For example, Edgar posited in one recent post that the right has been outmaneuvering the left such that it tends to win important battles (the Supreme Court, for example) and thus we are where we are. But this takes no account of what has been happening on the right. It entirely misses an orderly, planned and executed range of strategies designed to institutionalize GOP dominance. Purposefully filling the courts with right wing judges has been a long-term project which they understood could only be achieved incrementally. Likewise voter suppression. Likewise dismantling of women's right to abortion. Likewise the build up of their own isolated media system.

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@blatham,

Did you read “Letter From Birmingham Jail”? “The Ballot or the Bullet”? Were evil Edgar and I able to get in the magical way back machine and teach Martin and Malcolm our new word?

I think you have more reading to do in order to contribute meaningfully to conversations about progressivism. Btw, the dictionary definition of a political term like progressivism is useless.

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Quote:

Purposefully filling the courts with right wing judges has been a long-term project which they understood could only be achieved incrementally.

Unless you want to kill all the justices at once... what a ridiculous statement.

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