oralloy
 
  4  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 08:09 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Are there constant tests in the USA?

I assume so. I'm not sure how often.
oralloy
 
  3  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 08:10 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
I haven't verified all of Moore's claims, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were all true.

About half of what Moore said in that article is completely untrue.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  3  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 08:11 am
@Olivier5,
Michael Moore wrote:
the Republican governor, Rick Snyder, nullified the free elections in Flint, deposed the mayor and city council, then appointed his own man to run the city.

Flint is infested with leftists. Leftists always run their economy into the ground.

The state government took over the city because Flint was bankrupt.


Michael Moore wrote:
To save money, they decided to unhook the people of Flint from their fresh water drinking source, Lake Huron, and instead, make the public drink from the toxic Flint River.

Wrong. Flint was being crushed by high water bills from Detroit and wanted to build their own pipeline to Lake Huron. They wanted to do this even before the state government took over the city. Detroit did everything that it could to block this pipeline and force Flint to keep buying Detroit water.

When Flint went ahead and started construction of the pipeline despite Detroit's efforts to undermine the project, Detroit responded by cutting off their water right then. Flint had to start using water from the river because it was the only water available to them until they could get their pipeline built.


Michael Moore wrote:
When the governor's office discovered just how toxic the water was, they decided to keep quiet about it and covered up the extent of the damage being done to Flint's residents

Nonsense.


Michael Moore wrote:
While the Children in Flint Were Given Poisoned Water to Drink, General Motors Was Given a Special Hookup to the Clean Water.

True. The water was so corrosive that it was ruining car engine parts.


Michael Moore wrote:
For Just $100 a Day, This Crisis Could've Been Prevented.

True. The river water could easily and cheaply have been treated and then been acceptable for human consumption.

For some unexplained reason, it was not so treated.


Michael Moore wrote:
Someone at the beginning suggested to the Governor that they add this anti-corrosive element to the water coming out of the Flint River. "How much would that cost?" came the question. "$100 a day for three months," was the answer. I guess that was too much, so, in order to save $9,000, the state government said f*** it

The person who decided to withhold treatment of the water has never been identified to my knowledge. But there is no basis for saying that this decision came from the governor, or that the motive was to save the trivial cost of treating the river water.

I've always suspected that it was done by leftists who wanted to undermine the state takeover of Flint. That's just the sort of thing that a leftist would do.


Michael Moore wrote:
Don't Call It "Detroit Water" -- It's the Largest Source of Fresh Drinking Water in the World. The media keeps saying Flint was using "Detroit's water." It is only filtered and treated at the Detroit Water Plant. The water itself comes from Lake Huron, the third largest body of fresh water in the world.

The water comes through the Detroit water system.

Flint has to pay exorbitant fees to the Detroit water system to receive the water.

Detroit used mafia tactics to try to ensure that Flint could not get Lake Huron water from any source other than the Detroit water system.

It's Detroit water.


Michael Moore wrote:
This Was Done, Like So Many Things These Days, So the Rich Could Get a Big Tax Break.

Nonsense. Flint was planning to try to build their own water pipeline even before the state government took over the city. Their reason for trying to build their own pipeline was because they were being forced to pay unreasonable water bills to Detroit.

The reason for switching to river water was because Detroit cut off their water.

The reason for not paying $100 dollars a day to treat the water was, who knows. But $100 a day wasn't a huge expense for a city of that size.


Michael Moore wrote:
he invoked an executive privilege to take over cities (all of them majority black) by firing the mayors and city councils whom the local people had elected, and installing his cronies to act as "dictators" over these cities. Their mission? Cut services to save money so he could give the rich even more breaks.

Due to leftist mismanagement, the city was bankrupt.

Given that our state government is democratically elected, the left's characterization of state management as a "dictatorship" is fairly ludicrous.


Michael Moore wrote:
That's where the idea of switching Flint to river water came from. To save $15 million!

Wrong. The switch to the river water was because Detroit had just cut off their water.
Walter Hinteler
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 08:18 am
@oralloy,
With constant tests I meant tests at least 24/24. (Here, it is done constantly (= as the water flows) by the water company on a smaller basis, once to twice per month a complete analysis by an independent laboratory. ((Online copy of the water I get)
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 08:31 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
It's almost as if intelligence was seen as 'unamerican'...

Almost? Someone even wrote a book about it:

Quote:
Anti-intellectualism in American Life was awarded the 1964 Pulitzer Prize in Non-Fiction. It is a book which throws light on many features of the American character. Its concern is not merely to portray the scorners of intellect in American life, but to say something about what the intellectual is, and can be, as a force in a democratic society.

Hofstadter set out to trace the social movements that altered the role of intellect in American society from a virtue to a vice. In so doing, he explored questions regarding the purpose of education and whether the democratization of education altered that purpose and reshaped its form.

In considering the historic tension between access to education and excellence in education, Hofstadter argued that both anti-intellectualism and utilitarianism were consequences, in part, of the democratization of knowledge.

Moreover, he saw these themes as historically embedded in America's national fabric, an outcome of her colonial European and evangelical Protestant heritage. Anti-intellectualism and utilitarianism were functions of American cultural heritage, not necessarily of democracy.

goodreads

Of course, that was over fifty years ago. Surely things have changed:

Anti-intellectualism Is Killing America

Social dysfunction can be traced to the abandonment of reason
Quote:

(...)America is killing itself through its embrace and exaltation of ignorance, and the evidence is all around us. Dylann Roof, the Charleston shooter who used race as a basis for hate and mass murder, is just the latest horrific example. Many will correctly blame Roof's actions on America's culture of racism and gun violence, but it's time to realize that such phenomena are directly tied to the nation's culture of ignorance.

In a country where a sitting congressman told a crowd that evolution and the Big Bang are “lies straight from the pit of hell,” where the chairman of a Senate environmental panel brought a snowball into the chamber as evidence that climate change is a hoax, where almost one in three citizens can’t name the vice president, it is beyond dispute that critical thinking has been abandoned as a cultural value. Our failure as a society to connect the dots, to see that such anti-intellectualism comes with a huge price, could eventually be our downfall.

(...)

What Americans rarely acknowledge is that many of their social problems are rooted in the rejection of critical thinking or, conversely, the glorification of the emotional and irrational. What else could explain the hyper-patriotism that has many accepting an outlandish notion that America is far superior to the rest of the world? Love of one’s country is fine, but many Americans seem to honestly believe that their country both invented and perfected the idea of freedom, that the quality of life here far surpasses everywhere else in the world. (...)

psychologytoday

Quote:
There is a growing and disturbing trend of anti-intellectual elitism in American culture. It's the dismissal of science, the arts, and humanities and their replacement by entertainment, self-righteousness, ignorance, and deliberate gullibility.

Susan Jacoby, author of The Age of American Unreason, says in an article in the Washington Post, "Dumbness, to paraphrase the late senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, has been steadily defined downward for several decades, by a combination of heretofore irresistible forces. These include the triumph of video culture over print culture; a disjunction between Americans' rising level of formal education and their shaky grasp of basic geography, science and history; and the fusion of anti-rationalism with anti-intellectualism."

Journalist Charles Pierce, author of Idiot America, adds another perspective:

"The rise of idiot America today represents - for profit mainly, but also and more cynically, for political advantage in the pursuit of power - the breakdown of a consensus that the pursuit of knowledge is a good. It also represents the ascendancy of the notion that the people whom we should trust the least are the people who best know what they are talking about. In the new media age, everybody is an expert."

We're creating a world of dummies. Angry dummies who feel they have the right, the authority and the need not only to comment on everything, but to make sure their voice is heard above the rest, and to drag down any opposing views through personal attacks, loud repetition and confrontation.

sott

Well, those articles are nearly five years old. Maybe things have improved by now:

Quote:
“It’s freezing and snowing in New York – we need global warming!”

Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 08:39 am
@oralloy,
I note your incapacity to point out anything he says that's factually incorrect.
Olivier5
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 08:49 am
@hightor,
I am aware of the strong anti-intellectualist under-current in US culture, rooted in stereotypes about what a "real man" ought to be, but Michael Moore is not your average "effete intellectual". He's fat, loud, crude and punchy. He's also a brilliant investigative journalist... I don't understand why he gets rejected so much, in particular by the US left... (of course repukes would hate him, that's to be expected)
oralloy
 
  3  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 09:02 am
@Olivier5,
He gets rejected so much because so much of what he says is completely untrue.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  3  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 09:04 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
I note your incapacity to point out anything he says that's factually incorrect.

Wrong again.

Moore was wrong about the reason why the state government took over Flint.

Moore was wrong about the reason why Flint started using the river as their water supply.

Moore was wrong about the governor trying to cover up the crisis.

Moore was wrong to say that the Detroit water system should not be referred to as Detroit water.

Moore was probably wrong to state that the reason for not treating the water was to save money. We don't actually know the reason, but since the treatment was so cheap, his stated reason is unlikely.

That's four major errors and a likely fifth that I was able to point out.
Olivier5
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 09:08 am
@oralloy,
That's still quite vague and unverifiable. You'd have to state what you think he said, what you think is the case, what difference you think it makes, and what evidence you have... and then we can talk.
oralloy
 
  3  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 09:17 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
That's still quite vague and unverifiable. You'd have to state what you think he said,

There is no "what I think he said". His actual words are written down in the article that he wrote.


Olivier5 wrote:
what you think is the case, what difference you think it makes,

I already did that.


Olivier5 wrote:
and what evidence you have...

It was all reported on in the media. It shouldn't be too difficult for me to look up articles if any of my points are challenged.

I'm not anticipating any challenges to my points, but we'll see what happens.
oralloy
 
  4  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 09:21 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
With constant tests I meant tests at least 24/24. (Here, it is done constantly (= as the water flows) by the water company on a smaller basis, once to twice per month a complete analysis by an independent laboratory.

I'm not too familiar with urban life, but I doubt that the monitoring is continuous in the US.

Although I don't really know. I visit cities for a few hours now and then, but I've never lived in one.
Walter Hinteler
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 10:03 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
I'm not too familiar with urban life, but I doubt that the monitoring is continuous in the US.
This has nothing to do with urban and/or rural life but with the quality of the drinking water.
The water company of my small native town, checks the drinking water several times a day, twice a month it's analysed completely by an independent external laboratory.
oralloy
 
  3  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 10:43 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I have no experience with the water supplies of small towns or small villages either. This undermines my ability to answer your question about how often those supplies are tested.

I can tell you that there are no regular tests of the private well that serves my house alone. However, this water is purified through reverse osmosis before I drink it. And since the well is 200 feet deep, it draws water that is unlikely to be impacted by surface contamination.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 10:51 am
@oralloy,
You didn't make any point, though.
Walter Hinteler
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 10:55 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Looking at the down-votes, quite a few don't like their drinking water analysed - however, this has to be done here even with private wells (for microbiological parameters annually, for chemical and physical parameters depending on the use of the house well annually, at the latest every 3 years).
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  3  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 11:09 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
You didn't make any point, though.

That is incorrect. I directly confronted a number of untrue claims by Moore. Some of those untrue claims were repetitions of an untrue claim from earlier in the article, but there were at least four and probably five specific untrue claims that I confronted.
RABEL222
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 12:34 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
We have many private and municipal water companies who are regulated by the EPA. The chief job of private water companies is to make money for their stockholders. And the job of municipal water companies is to provide well paying jobs for the kids and relatives of the politicians running the systems. If it weren't for the EPA the drinking water would come directly from the sewer systems of those municipalities.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 12:52 pm
@oralloy,
No, you did not confront Moore. You just gave your opinion that he was incorrect, and my opinion is that you are incorrect in doing so.
oralloy
 
  4  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 01:06 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
No, you did not confront Moore.

When I quote an incorrect statement and reply by describing what the truth is, that is confronting the incorrect statement.


Olivier5 wrote:
You just gave yor opinion that he was inconrect, and my opinion is that you are incorrect in doind so.

Everything that I said can be backed up by reputable news articles.

No reputable news articles back up any of the five claims from Moore that I challenged.
 

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