Back to Leave No Child Behind

Mills, Thank you for providing the perspective of a teacher who works on the front lines of today's schools and the conditions imposed on you by the beaurocracy from the federal level to the local level of school administration. Most outsiders cannot possibly understand the conditions in which most professionals work; you follow the rules and regulations set up by your employer, or you go without working. Not a simple choice, but the reality of our work environment. People who claim otherwise just doesn't understand the reality of working or not working. Most will choose to work.

Especially when you add family into the equation. I've got to keep the critters in kibble somehow and teaching beats working at Wal-Mart. Besides, teaching's only a really tough job for nine months out of the the year...it gets surprisingly easy from early/mid June through August!

Mills 75 and c.i.:-

There is a difference between indoctrination,propaganda and education.Your arguments fit the first two but not the latter.
There are teachers who have no economic whip driving them.
And there are other jobs which one presumes the "burn-outs" you mentioned are now in.The "educational" system in both our countries is in melt-down.
With a population of 270 million you must have roughly,if we assume a life expectancy of 100 for easy reckoning,2.7 million at each age.If schooling,as we may as well call it,takes the 4-18 age range we get 15x 2.7 million students=40 million.Given class sizes of 20 you then need 2 million teachers and this number,considering all the other competing occupations and the low wages of teachers in comparison,more or less precludes the possibility of teachers being drawn from IQ ranges much above 105.
So I agree that we can't expect teaching,in the vast majority of cases,to be anything other than just a job.And a tough one.But why do teachers as a body believe themselves to have something significant to say about education.
As you might guess I have sympathy with the Ivan Illych position in De-schooling Society.Mrs Thatcher flirted with that when she was in office but the teachers unions blocked her off before she could get started.What that shows is that teachers have actually more clout than miners and steel workers who failed to stop her reforms.This is only to be expected when child-minding is really the name of the game.You might have more power than you think.

spendius, When one talks about big numbers such as the teacher's unions, they are still controlled by some administration that is beyond the scope of "individual teachers." I once belonged to the Teamster's Union. How powerful do you think I was as an individual member? Get the picture?

What education is not indoctrination or propaganda to some degree? Everyone has an agenda and no one is truly objective. I am also in sympathy with Illich (for a very brief moment I wondered why you were bringing up a Tolstoy novel), but we don't live in that system, and though we may try to make the current system more closely approximate that ideal, we are still left to deal with the existing system.



Whoa! Maybe in the special ed. classes for the severely impaired.



Unless the educational requirements for teachers are dropped, and given the strong positive correlation between IQ and educational achievement, it's probably safe to assume that the average teacher IQ is at least a standard deviation above average. Of course, just about everyone thinks s/he could walk into a classroom and be a teacher, so perhaps the requirements will be dropped. Then we can have fast-food education.



Why do medical doctors believe they have something significant to say about medicine? Why do lawyers believe they have something significant to say about law? Because they are experts on those subjects. Why do teachers believe they have something significant to say about education? Because they are experts on education. Even a first year teacher has spent the better part of the last four-six years of his or her life studying educational theory and practice. Simply put, education isn't merely a hobby or topic of conversation for a teacher, it's a major focus of his or her life.

As for unions, in the US, the strength of 'education associations' varies by state, but are quite weak nationally. It's not surprising the teachers' union in Britain were able to generate enough political power to enforce their will. However, there is, unfortunately, very little sense of solidarity amongst workers in the US.

It all sounds a bit totalitarian to me.

I can only try a point by point approach.

One might consider being a union activist.

You could consider education as the stimulation of the idle curiosity for no particular purpose.

There would be nothing wrong with bringing Tolstoy into a debate about education.In fact I would recommend it.

Mrs Thatcher was persuaded of the merits of the voucher system.And some of her cabinet colleagues.She is reputed to have started the mother of all battles isn't she.

You have large class sizes do you?Education(?) on the cheap with your pensions riding on the outcome.How high is student enthusiasm?

"...it is probably safe to assume" is not a phrase I would care to comment on.

Iatrogenisis is fair comment on doctors and the Jackson case the same for lawyers.Do you really think either group,taken at the average,is expert.
No chance.Was Ashcroft an expert?

A teacher spending 4-6 years "studying" education(?) isn't proof of expertise.

I see the main CBS News most nights and I can't remember a positive story about education.

Take comfort though.It's pretty bad here in the state system.The kids have to wear eye protection to play at conkers and be supervised.

Quote, "One might consider being a union activist." One might, but in my personal experience, I was working full-time at night as a Teamster, and going to school full-time during the day. Union activist? When was I supposed to study and sleep? I just gave this example, because general statements really is not fair. My neice is a teacher with a young child with another along the way. She expends much energy to be a good teacher, but she also has responsibilities at home. When is she supposed to be a "union activist?" Most join unions, because they do not have much power as an individual, but do have negotiating power as a group. Ever go to your employer with a request for better pay and benefits? How effective do you think that invidual will be in his request - even though everybody knows the employer is making good profit? As a unoin group, the employer is required to negotiate. As an individual, the employer just needs to say "no."

Teachers certainly have more expertise than the out-of-touch politicians making the laws. While I don't pretend to know all the nuances of NCLB, I think it is basically a good plan, but underfunded. If we put half the effort and finance into education as we put into the military/industrial complex-- get our prioroties straight-- the education problem would no longer be.

lash, Point well taken - the right priorities would certainly minimize many of the problems we have in our country today.

The kids are the priority I should have thought.

It's the same here.The educational system is teacher centred.It is dominated by the lower middle-class.The fee-paying schools cater for a very small proportion of children.Mr Blair uses those as also do anybody who can afford it.

c.i.--you said,"general statements really is not fair".
I don't know about that.Specific statements are meaningless in a debate of this nature.They represent mere incidents.When 40 million (was it?) children's education is under discussion one could find specifics to prove anything.There are more than a few unsubstantiated assertions in your post
you know which,other than pointing you to them,I will not comment on.
There seems very little here which is concerned with the education of children,let alone the idea of leaving no child behind whatever that means.
We seem to be talking past each other.

Me too, but most children and adolescents don't deal well with democracy. Given the absolute freedom to choose what to eat, the majority would choose junk food. Given the freedom to choose between learning about whatever they would like to learn about (an idealistic situation) and sleeping in late and playing video games all day, the majority would choose to latter.



I am a union activist. However, a growing number of states (the one I'm living in included) have outlawed strikes by teachers, and when this happens the rank and file association members lose all interest in showing solidarity or making any public displays of their dissent.



You could, but even the most egalitarian and democratic society will want its young to acquire certain skills and knowledge before coming of age.



(A) That was a joke--you were refering to the Ivan Illich who penned the idea of "deschooling" but spelled it Illych, which made me think of Tolstoy's work The Death of Ivan Illych. (B) I wasn't aware that Tolstoy had anything particularly profound to say about education, but then there are a great many writers and philosophers who've written and philosophized about a great many things and no one could absorb it all in single lifetime. What did Tolstoy have to say about ed.? (Or in what work would I find his ideas on education?) That last work I read that took a structural look at education was titled Ain't No Makin' It by a sociologist named McLeod--it examined how schools contribute to class reproduction. You may be familiar with Willis' Learning to Labor; if so, McLeod's work basically builds upon and extends Willis'.



It certainly is lovely way for those already possessing the means to get a discounted 'premium' education for their offspring while at the same time legitimizing unequal education for the poor and lower middle/working classes.



Indeed. One of the major problems with our (the US's) education system, and one that is not only unaddressed by NCLB, but is actually made worse by it. Schools that fail to improve will suffer reductions in their funding, which means fewer teachers and even larger class sizes. Unfortunately, most people don't realize how perceptive young people are: they see the crowded classes, the lack of proper maintenance/cleaning, etc., and they tend to place about the same value on education that society does.



An expert who is human is still human, and humans make mistakes; this doesn't, however, change whether or not one is an expert. Also, using one's expertise for nefarious purposes does not negate the existence of the expertise. And Ashcroft most certainly is an expert: one couldn't bend and twist the law to fit his and his overlords' agenda as Ashcroft did without expert knowledge of the law and how the legal system operates.



Quite the contrary, it's the only objective evidence of expertise we have.



That's because positive stories don't make the viewers turn to your station like negative stories do. For example, news stories about violent crimes have increased over 600% since the 80's while violent crime rates and crime rates generally have been dropping steadily during the same time period.



And as not to allow an opportunity to display some good ol' yankee ignorance pass me by--what is 'conkers'?

They certainly should be the priority of the education system and education legislation, but most ed. leg. is geared to score political points rather than actually improve or reform the system. When Bush put together the so-called "No Child Left Behind" Act, he was simply trying appear concerned about education and make a show of reforming it, but he may very well have made the problem worse.



No, in most states the only folks who bear less consideration than teachers when it comes to the educational system are the custodians.



I think that's my point. The legislation titled "No Child Left Behind" that passed both houses of the US congress does nearly nothing to avoid leaving children behind. It would be more aptly titled "Almost Every Child Left Behind."

Quote, "Indeed. One of the major problems with our (the US's) education system, and one that is not only unaddressed by NCLB, but is actually made worse by it. Schools that fail to improve will suffer reductions in their funding, which means fewer teachers and even larger class sizes." One of the unintended consequences of NCLB is the fact the some of the best schools in California are being penalized because they are being compared to the bad performing schools in their district, and they're not showing "bigger improvements." It's almost comical if not so serious.

cicerone imposter: it is sad, isn't it? And all this is largely the result of international comparisons of student achievement; most other industrialized nations, however, have rigorous tracking systems (ie, it's determined at a fairly early age whether a child will be placed in an academic track or a vocational track); the average performance of all US students is being compared to, in many cases, the performance of the top 10-25% of students in other countries.

Not only that, but we're falling further behind in math and science. ;(

It's actually an impossible problem.Millions of children cannot be dealt with in any new way given the exigencies.I feel sure that most of the professionals involved are doing what they think best with what they have.I do not envy them.
However,one can seek to restore some faith in individual teachers and if that is done it is going to be only their students who will benefit assuming that the faith is a sound one.To view the problem in larger spheres,even globally,can,not will, cause a distraction.My focus,if I was a teacher,would be on my students and particularly the responsive ones.It would be either their good luck or otherwise.I think that the general attitude a teacher conveys is more important that the subject matter.A student who picks up an attitude which values the idle curiosity will teach himself the rest.The first requirment to me for a teacher is that he is admired by his male students.I wouldn't presume to know how to prepare a girl for life.So you can guess that I despise mixed education.

There's a difficulty with "junk food" relating to age and sex.I don't know the science though.

Teacher's strikes are almost unknown here but they are occasionally threatened.There are other ways.

It is too long ago when I read Tolstoy for me to remember details.But there's an attitude in it which might benefit some types of personalities.He was a bit mad though.Dylan says somewhere-"just keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn.It is that sort of attitude.But it may well be out of date.
Here's the rub.In a fast changing world have teachers anything worthwhile to say.You can end up preparing children for conditions you lived in when you were young and which will be alien to them in 20 years.This is why my stress is on attitude.

There are many possibilities in the voucher system.

I'll allow Ashcroft's expertise but I might have difficulty in distinguishing it from the expertise of a lion stalking prey.

I don't think there's any objective evidence of teacher expertise aside from an old student coming to thank you for something you taught them.You can't expect any thanks from anybody.You do your best and send them out.If they are enthusiastic about anything they will be okay.It's the enthusiasm that counts.So you have to demonstrate how enthusiasm worked for you.It's a personal thing.

Yeah-I know about news slant.Disgusting ain't it?

Conkers is an aggressive game.In autumn,fall,the chestnut trees drop their nuts.Inside there is a beautiful rich brown nut.We collect these and after satisfying our admiration on yet another natural wonder we dry them in our Mum's oven.They come out as hard as a well dried horse chestnut.Then we drill a hole through them and thread a string through tying a knot on the end so it won't slip off.
Then we toss up who goes first.The toss loser holds his conker up at arm's length and the toss winner has a swipe at it with his conker.Girls don't play.Turns are taken and continue until one of the conkers is shattered.The winner then has a "one-er".If that conker wins the next joust it becomes a two-er and so on.I once had a 159-er but I was a country boy and had a big choice.I think the theory was,back then,that boys who played it,and it often got fierce as boys games do,would have the sort of attitude needed to go into places like Faluga and do the business.It faded away when the season of chestnuts finished.Nowadays the teachers are supervising the game and the players have to wear eye-protection.In the school grounds I mean.That's not to protect the lad's eyes but to protect the school from legal claims.I'm surprised you don't play it but you may well do under another name.Maybe chestnut trees are not common in California like lawyers are.Maybe you should dry some lawyers in the oven,string 'em and play with them.That's a good idea.

It's not "the enthusiasm" that counts. There are many variables why students fail or succeed. Your narrow persective doesn't help.

c.i.

Well-there you go then.I didn't say there were no risks.I didn't claim I wanted to be popular with the authorities.If they are all to be dumbed down I'd go for trying to rescue a few.And I wouldn't expect any thanks.It isn't a career to me it is a vocation.

Ive seen this before, but somebody sent it to me today, so thought you teachers will get a smile out of it.
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Teacher Application
After being interviewed by the school administration, the eager teaching prospect said: "Let me see if I've got this right . .

You want me to go into that room with all those kids, and fill their every waking moment with a love for learning. And I'm supposed to instill a
sense of pride in their ethnicity, modify their disruptive behavior, observe them for signs of abuse and even censor their T-shirt messages and dress habits.

You want me to wage a war on drugs and sexually transmitted diseases, check their backpacks for weapons of mass destruction, and raise their self
esteem. You want me to teach them patriotism, good citizenship, sportsmanship, fair play, how to register to vote, how to balance a checkbook, and how to apply for a job.

I am to check their heads for lice, maintain a safe environment, recognize signs of anti-social behavior, make sure all students pass the mandatory state exams, even those who don't come to school regularly or complete any of their assignments.

Plus, I am to make sure that all of the students with handicaps get an equal education regardless of the extent of their mental or physical

handicap. And I am to communicate regularly with the parents by letter, telephone, newsletter and report card. All of this I am to do with just a piece of chalk, a computer, a few books, a bulletin board, a big smile AND on a starting salary that qualifies my family for food stamps!

You want me to do all of this and yet you expect me...... NOT TO PRAY?

...and what was that starting salary again?