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I only have problems with those who presume to speak for me, CI. If you have some credentials or special gift for reading minds and deciphering intent, I would be happy to see those.

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Not necessary. I don't speak for you, fox; you do a yeoman's job all by yourself. Can't read minds or decipher intent unless the writer makes it clear what they support or don't support when they post links.

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Well if you post a poll, would you say that you are posting something you agree with CI? Or would you be posting a poll as information. Perhaps you conduct your own poll to verify or disprove the results of the poll you post. How does one agree with or disagree with the results of a poll that one doesn't conduct?

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c.i.

Most of that is pretty elementary.It surprises me that you address remarks like that to me and to fellow threaders.

If we are going to put what a child needs first what do you do with children who need to sleep in class,talk in class,fight in class,to have no homework,and to have no challenge.And won't they all claim that those things are what they need once we have laid ourselves down in front of them as you suggest.Children need strong handling.Once they detect they won't be getting it they will take advantage.It seems to me that they have the bureaucracies by the short hairs and that you are trying to put a brave face on it.Children can detect weakness like animals can and with greedy lawyers on the look out for the main chance and senior admin petrified of what might happen and the kids all good actors you have a recipe for a form of group catatonia.

Maybe we should forget it.We've lost it.Without a dramatic change it will just get lost even more until it fizzles out of its own accord.Like Dylan said-"sure was a good idea till greed got in the way."

Vouchers are the least dramatic solution.Without them I see no possibilty of a solution.I wish it was,or is it were,otherwise.

You refuse to face up to the nature of bureaucracy.
There is serious talk here of conscription into some sort of quasi-military organisation to try to undo the damage the educational system has caused.It is actually a peer-group status symbol to goof it off now.Some see court appearences as badges of honour.What do you suggest we do about that?If things keep heading the way they are I can see gangs of adult men going after the kids because everybody else has bottled it.There's three girls in one family on the news tonight,12,14 and 16,all pregnant.Put the offspring into the same situation and you have 7 generations per century and it isn't so long since it was 4.270 million will look spaced out by the time 2100 gets here.Presumably those girls were given what they needed.How many teachers required then.Good business eh?

Surely what we are interested in is having the nation in good form.There is a collective need for education which is more important than any individual need.

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c.i.

Most of that is pretty elementary.It surprises me that you address remarks like that to me and to fellow threaders.

If we are going to put what a child needs first what do you do with children who need to sleep in class,talk in class,fight in class,to have no homework,and to have no challenge.And won't they all claim that those things are what they need once we have laid ourselves down in front of them as you suggest.Children need strong handling.Once they detect they won't be getting it they will take advantage.It seems to me that they have the bureaucracies by the short hairs and that you are trying to put a brave face on it.Children can detect weakness like animals can and with greedy lawyers on the look out for the main chance and senior admin petrified of what might happen and the kids all good actors you have a recipe for a form of group catatonia.

Maybe we should forget it.We've lost it.Without a dramatic change it will just get lost even more until it fizzles out of its own accord.Like Dylan said-"sure was a good idea till greed got in the way."

Vouchers are the least dramatic solution.Without them I see no possibilty of a solution.I wish it was,or is it were,otherwise.

You refuse to face up to the nature of bureaucracy.
There is serious talk here of conscription into some sort of quasi-military organisation to try to undo the damage the educational system has caused.It is actually a peer-group status symbol to goof it off now.Some see court appearences as badges of honour.What do you suggest we do about that?If things keep heading the way they are I can see gangs of adult men going after the kids because everybody else has bottled it.There's three girls in one family on the news tonight,12,14 and 16,all pregnant.Put the offspring into the same situation and you have 7 generations per century and it isn't so long since it was 4.270 million will look spaced out by the time 2100 gets here.Presumably those girls were given what they needed.How many teachers required then.Good business eh?

Surely what we are interested in is having the nation in good form.There is a collective need for education which is more important than any individual need.

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Sorry about that.I need some discipline.This dial-up has me confused.I have to wait a few days to get on BB.

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Quote, "Sorry about that.I need some discipline." Who said that children do not need discipline?

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spendius wrote:

Mills 75:-

Education here has had 130 years to get its house in order and has failed to do so.It has lowered standards for qualifications to such a point where they are more or less meaningless and employers have been forced to arrange themselves accordingly.We have recently arrived at the point that children up to 16 are under curfew after 9 pm so disorderly has their conduct become.I am told,though I can't vouch for it,that the maximum penalty for breaking this curfew is a £5,000 fine and two nights in the cells for the parents.Almost every news broadcast is covering the effects of young people's behaviour.

.

So, you think the standards of 130 years ago, or the year 1875 should be applied today?

Or, do you think this country has been here for 135 years?

Would you recommend we not educate women? Women could be kept out of school in the 19th century.

Should we preserve medical knowledge from 1875? Technology?

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spendius wrote:

Quote:
I really hate to see teachers maligned by you in this insulting manner. What right do you have to use the tone you do?

I have a perfect right to use any tone I wish within the rules of the site.So do you.

In a class of 50 there is a statistical probability that there will be a few kids with higher IQs than their teacher.
.

So there are many posters here whose IQ is superior to yours.

Several years ago, someone pointed out that only an average IQ is needed to attend college and graduate.

The average ph.d. candidate had an IQ of 115, according to that same article.

Don't ask for a citation. I read it, or, rather, I suspect it was part of my M.A.T. program, about 35 years ago.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Mills writes

Quote:
Intelligence, or the lack thereof, will vary from parent to parent. Indeed, as we see in today's society, many parents aren't qualified to be parents, much less decide on proper education. If a parent wants his or her child to go to a private school, that's fine, but there's no logical reason why tax dollars should subsidize that choice.

And by credible research I trust you mean only that research which verifies your preconceptions.

By credible research I mean only that research conducted by people who have no ax to grind re the results. s.

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I posted before I meant to above, I suspose because I was overwhelmed by the stupidity of the response as a whole.

Home schoolers, for your information, come in all stripes. Since today's average homeschooler is a political reactionary who wants to deny science, I fail to see how these blind, who are blinding their own children, score so well on imaginary tests.

Of course, it matters what kind of private school we are discussing. It is patently obvious that you never heard of the St. Grottlesex sort of school but the students at those institutions are far and away above the kids at Hunkerdown (IO) High.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

"The learning environment" begins at home. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the wealthier home will have the right kind of learning tools for their children over the poor family scraping by. Preschool for all children will benefit all of them. A Harvard study found that most of the preschool children expelled were black. School administrators lack the skills to correct these problems from the very beginning of a child's education; that's where our problems increase as these children get older.

Test grades are rising for Black children in general because more Black women are completing high school.

If we had allowed Black people to own homes back when returning GIs could afford the new track homes, maybe there wouldn't be the problem cited above.

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timberlandko wrote:

Well now, there's a rather less-than-objective bit of Op/Ed bit that meets every forensic qualification needed to be considered partisan screed.

c.i. wrote:
... The problem with these "improved" scores results from more minorities dropping out of school ...

I'd be interested to see credible statistical evidence supporting that claim - not saying such credible evidence doesn't exist, just saying I'm unaware any such correlation has been established.

Many states "raise" their test scores by keeping immigrant and Black kids back, so they never pass into the grade where testing occurs.

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Atkins, You got that right! If these children drop out of school, any statistics provded which shows "raising of test scores" becomes almost meaningless - especially when considered from the perspective of NCLB.

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Thank you, cicerone. Do you find this thread exhausting? I do.

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I find many threads on a2k exhausting, but what else is there to do with all our free time? LOL

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My wife keeps reminding me to excercise my grey matter to keep mentally healthy, and a2k is the only place I can do that on a regular basis.

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I suppose it is better than drinking.

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No it isn't.But drink has limits.

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Found this amusing:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050523/ap_on_fe_st/math_fumble

Sports Fans Cry Foul on Math Question

RALEIGH, N.C. - The state's test writers tried to come up with a math question about football and ended up with a fumble.

ADVERTISEMENT

On an end-of-grade test this month, seventh-graders had to calculate the average gain for a team on the game's first six plays. But the team did not gain 10 yards on the first four plays and would have lost possession before a fifth and sixth play.

The team opened with a 6-yard loss, a 3-yard gain and a 2-yard loss, which would have made it fourth down with 15 yards to go for a first down. The team's fourth play was just a 7-yard gain, yet it maintained possession for a 12-yard gain and a 4-yard gain on two additional plays.

"Whoever wrote it didn't think it through," said Gene Daniels, athletics director of Salem Middle School in Apex.

Mildred Bazemore, chief of the state Department of Public Instruction's test development section, said the question makes sense mathematically and was reviewed thoroughly.

"It has nothing to do with football," Bazemore said. "It has to do with the mathematical concepts that you're studying."

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