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I would like to address the person who sent me a private note. I am not able to reply to you because I haven't been a member of this forum long enough. That is unfair.

I was upset to learn that others can read private notices addressed to me while I can not respond to those same notices.

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We need clarification here. Writers should specify whether they refer to elementary, middle or high schools. Private schools should be identified by type.

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Atkins, Don't take it too personally; I'm one of your supporters, and enjoy your posts. You bring a good balance to the "other side" opinions. c.i.

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Foxfyre wrote:

The provision included in NCLB only provides a requirement that the military recruiters not be barred from school campuses while other recruiters are allowed or even invited. Many schools during the Clinton administration had taken to barring military recruiters based on political ideological grounds.

The law also allows student information to not be released to military recruiters if the student does not wish for it to be released..

It isn't all that sinister.

Why shouldn't local school boards have the authority to bar any recruiters they feel appropriate to bar?

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Foxfyre wrote:

I think one can oppose vouchers only if they a) believe the existing public education system is adequate and should not be compromised or b) parents are too stupid to choose better education and/or opportunities for their children.

Or c) they pay attention to the research and see that private schools don't actually educate their students any more effectively than public schools (they just cater to a different clientele). That being the case it would be criminally insane to syphon tax dollars from an already financially beleaguered public school system to subsidize students attending private schools.

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Atkins wrote:

The important note here is "when controlling for socio-economic background."

There are many kinds of private schools. Clarification as to whether elementary schools or high schools is the starting point.

There are the old guard prep schools of the East coast and their wannabes. There are religious schools. There are schools with definite philosophies. Some comparisons are of the apples and oranges variety.

When looking at broader statistical trends and the context of the research, I don't think the distinctions you mention are that important. Remember, the argument in favor of vouchers isn't that some private schools are better than some public schools, but that private schools in general are better than the public school system. The study I mention refutes that notion.

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Mills writes

Quote:

Why shouldn't local school boards have the authority to bar any recruiters they feel appropriate to bar?

Nobody is saying that they cannot. But why should the Federal government give funding to a school that refuses to play by the rules? Those who grant the funding should get to set the rules.

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What does recruitment for military service have to do with the education of our children to make it mandatory? Play by the rules? Heck, we're the tax payers.

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Mills writes

Quote:

Or c) they pay attention to the research and see that private schools don't actually educate their students any more effectively than public schools (they just cater to a different clientele). That being the case it would be criminally insane to syphon tax dollars from an already financially beleaguered public school system to subsidize students attending private schools.

So you are actually going with b) - parents are too stupid to choose the best available education for their children? Or perhaps there is a d) the government decides who shall be educated where and parents should have no say in that whatsoever

I favor letting the market decide. So far nobody has come up with any good reason that wouldn't work better than anything else.

P.S. I would have to see some credible and broad based scientific studies conducted by a distinterested objective and competent research organization before I will believe that public schools overall are doing as good a job as the private schools or homeschoolers. So a study done by the NEA or any other similar organization wouldn't convince me.

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Foxfyre: Intelligence, or the lack thereof, will vary from parent to parent. Indeed, as we see in today's society, many parents aren't qualified to be parents, much less decide on proper education. If a parent wants his or her child to go to a private school, that's fine, but there's no logical reason why tax dollars should subsidize that choice.

And by credible research I trust you mean only that research which verifies your preconceptions.

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Quote:

I really hate to see teachers maligned by you in this insulting manner. What right do you have to use the tone you do?

I have a perfect right to use any tone I wish within the rules of the site.So do you.

I don't malign teachers.The sociology satisfies me that the average teacher has a more or less average intelligence.The number of teachers needed is such that it couldn't be otherwise.In a class of 50 there is a statistical probability that there will be a few kids with higher IQs than their teacher.You can't shift a random distribution curve around to bring teachers further to the right of the 100 line.With a million teachers and other employers competing for the high IQ sections of the population the facts speak for themselves.I have the utmost sympathy with teachers.They seem to have a more or less impossible task.

I don't think you have got it on board what a bunch of toss-pots the bulk of the human race actually are.There are so many toss-pots I sometimes wonder if I might be one myself.

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Foxfyre is not the only one who might use research tp justify her preconceptions and therewith assign it credibility.

Quote:

When looking at broader statistical trends and the context of the research, I don't think the distinctions you mention are that important. Remember, the argument in favor of vouchers isn't that some private schools are better than some public schools, but that private schools in general are better than the public school system. The study I mention refutes that notion.

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A mixture of public and private schools is not the same thing as a voucher system and the two systems are not comparable.Satistics from the former are unrelated to any aspect of the latter and say nothing about it.

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Quote:

Spendius probably had a bad experience with a few of his teachers

This is Mathosian.Soft centred.

The style Lola and I have started calling Mathosian is that exhibited by one Mathos.Mathos himself,bless his little cotton socks,would have left out the "probably" for the simple reason that such a cheapskate qualifier would never have entered his conker.

The basic style is the bald assertion of a falsehood based on no evidence.A slimey smear not to put too fine a point on it.A self-serving guess.An excuse.

My teachers were wonderful.All of them.The heavy spadework was done by priests of a decent brigade and I sincerely hope that they find salvation in the bosom of the Almighty as I do for any of my other teachers who seek such a destiny.Later on when the crowd thinned out was the finer tunings phase which is ongoing.They were great and I love them all especially the more devious ones.

So the yellow coloured smear which I have quoted to make sure it is seen more often is incorrect and I thought I owed it to myself to make sure that threaders are not left with the impression the smear is intended to convey and are left with the impression it actually does convey.

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Mills writes

Quote:

Intelligence, or the lack thereof, will vary from parent to parent. Indeed, as we see in today's society, many parents aren't qualified to be parents, much less decide on proper education. If a parent wants his or her child to go to a private school, that's fine, but there's no logical reason why tax dollars should subsidize that choice.

And by credible research I trust you mean only that research which verifies your preconceptions.

By credible research I mean only that research conducted by people who have no ax to grind re the results. Now if you or Atkins have a link to such a study, I would certainly look at it. The only data I have seen shows that test scores (SATs etc) coming out of private schools are substantially better than those on average from the public schools. And home schoolers are doing the best of all. Do I have a link? No I don't as the data I have seen was not on the internet, so I present all this as my opinion for now.

The environment of the private schools is another significant factor. Private schools can discipline the students or bounce them right out if they are disruptive or disrespectful just as they could do in the public schools when I attended public school. Private schools can and do require and enforce dress codes and standards of deportment. I wonder if public schools even give a grade for deportment anymore? They did when I went to school. The only thing I see public schools rigidly enforcing these days is the zero tolerance on weapons, and that is only for those kids that get caught.

Private schools are immune to threats of lawsuits from the ACLU, and the teachers and administration are not afraid to set and enforce strict rules. In private schools, students are not worried about being assaulted in the hallways. Students are taught manners and courtesy and know what a professional demeanor is by the time they graduate. Parental involvement can be required and enforced.

And to Atkins, it does not matter 'what kind' of private school is involved. If it is doing a good job of educating students, I don't care what kind it is. and I would like for the initiative to be to make it easier and possible for all students to be educated in a safe, caring, and effective environment.

But again, the public schools can do this too. But they have to have some incentive to do it. So long as their funding is guaranteed if they meet some minimum standard, and so long as they are allowed to exercise social promotions, and so long as they operate under threats of lawsuits, they won't/can't provide a learning environment as effective as the private schools provide.

The 'rich man's' kids should not be the only ones who enjoy an effective learning environment. Vouchers would make it possible for the 'unrich kids' to have more access, and with more kids wanting such access, the market will meet the demand. And given a choice between losing their funding or demanding reforms that allow them to compete on a par with private schools, the public schools would almost certainly choose the latter.

Ultimately it would be a win win for all--the schools, the teachers, and most importantly, the kids.

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"The learning environment" begins at home. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the wealthier home will have the right kind of learning tools for their children over the poor family scraping by. Preschool for all children will benefit all of them. A Harvard study found that most of the preschool children expelled were black. School administrators lack the skills to correct these problems from the very beginning of a child's education; that's where our problems increase as these children get older.

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THen wouldn't it be a good thing to break the cycle CI? How many people with a good education do any of us know who are 'poor'?

We can continue what we're doing and continue turning out poorly educated, even functionally illiterate highschool graduates--this is worse than highschool dropouts because they can't even fall back on a G.E.D.--or we can resolve to do things differently.

I think the evidence shows that throwing more and more money at a failing system has done nothing to improve education for kids.

I opt for a radically different approach.

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All my siblings and I went to public grade schools, and we were dirt poor. Yeah, we were dirt poor, and we lived in hostels where our home was a couple of 'rooms' divided by army blankets. My older brother eventually became an administrative judge in California, my younger brother an ophthalmologist (now a legislator in the state capitol), and my sister a RN. Most of our children (over 90 percent) have a college degree.

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So was I. We lived a whole year in a borrowed house with only one old ice box--not refrigerator--a 2-burner gas range and mostly apple crates for furniture for a year. (The army lost our stuff in a move). We couldn't afford to replace it. They made really good apple crates in those days though. When our furniture finally did show up, it wasn't a whole lot better.

And yet you got a decent education. So did I.

Don't we owe the same to kids now?

Too many poor children don't have any option but to go to poorly run, ineffective, gang-infested schools. Perhaps their parents wouldn't want a chance to improve their kids' chances. I'm betting a lot of them would, however, if we gave them that chance.

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[url=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1348266#1348266]Atkins[/url] wrote:

It was clearly demonstrated that Timberlandko attacked plainoldme as a person. To criticize the product of a person's enterprise is fine. To attack the person, as Timberlandko did, is not.

Where, and in what manner, did timber attack the person of plainoldme? Or, for that matter, as such would seem to be the current thrust, of Atkins? I submit precisely the oposite is the case. Where, and in what manner, have either Atkins or plainoldme addressed the substance of timber's argument, as opposed to negatively critiquing the manner in which timber presents that argument? I submit from timber the following earlier post, and observe no challenge has been presented to any factual statement contained therein. I call attention as well to timber's post Here, which, with relevant links, lays out a number of instances by which timber's person and/or presentation are addressed in negative, perjorative manner, not timber's argument. A bit further on, timber addresses Atkins with a specific request for substantiation of allegations levelled against timber by Atkins, a request, so far as I have noticed, not met. If I have missed something, someone please point out what I missed.

But enough of this digression. If some wish to pick a fight with another over style, contending same invalidates substance, thus obviating need to address substance, so be it. That itself is telling.

I submit again the core of timber's/my earlier referrenced, and by the 2 members referrenced above as yet unaddressed, argument, to whit:

[url=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1264167#1264167]timber[/url] wrote:

...under the current system, we spend ever-increasin'ly more overall, with more and more people employed by the system, and more and more spent on stuff unnecessary, ancillary or even irrelevant to education, while our children get less and less education, as amply demonstrated by objective international comparison. It is entirely conceivable we don't spend enough on education. It is undeniable, however, that we get nowhere near the education we already pay for, and that other industrialized nations get far better results with significantly less spendin'-per-pupil. Perhaps we might benefit from greater spendin' on education, but there is absolutely no point spendin' more if we don't spend wisely. It is stupid to pursue a repeatedly failed course of action in expectation of improved result through repetion. Throwin' more money at the current system is stupid. Expectin' the current system to improve on its own is stupid. Wantin' better for our children is not stupid. We can't afford to be doin' stupid things to our children. Its more than high time to stop the stupidity.

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I submit that the shortcomings of today's US educational system stem in large part from the so-called "reforms" of the '60s, '70s, '80s, and '90s.

I submit that while as imperfect as any other enterprise of humankind, NCLB addresses and is directed toward remediation of many of those shortcomings.

I submit that proposing educators and administrators should be the ones to formulate and implement improvements to the troubled US educational system is akin to suggesting only commuters and pleaure drivers should design automobiles, or that gluttons are best qualified to devise weight-loss diets.

I submit that those most opposed to NCLB largely are those responsible for the problems NCLB is meant to address, and simultaneously are the very placeholders and patronage freeloaders who's sinecures most are threatened by the accountability brought on by NCLB.

Finally, I submit the following:

Quote:

The early evidence from these results and the efforts at the state and local level are beginning to have an impact on the children of this country. For example, results from the 2003 fourth-grade National Assessment of Educational Progress reading assessments are higher than previous years. Specifically:

A higher percentage of fourth-grade readers scored at or above Basic than in 1994, 1998, and 2000;

A higher percentage of fourth-grade readers scored at or above Proficient than in 1992 and 1998;

Fourth-grade white students, black students, and Hispanic students had higher average reading scores than in 1994, 1998, and 2000;

The average score gap between white and black fourth graders was smaller than in 1994; and

The gap between white and Hispanic fourth graders narrowed between 2000 and 2003.

In addition, average National Assessment of Educational Progress mathematic scores for fourth and eighth graders were higher in 2003 than in all previous assessment years.

Source: U.S. Department of Education's Results Agenda, July 2004 (Note: 15 page .pdf file)

Much needed to be done Much remains to be done. While not doing everything that needs to be done, NCLB is getting some much-needed things done. What is being done, IMO, is to be preferred over what, prior to NCLB, had been being done.

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Quote:
The early evidence from these results and the efforts at the state and local level are beginning to have an impact on the children of this country. For example, results from the 2003 fourth-grade National Assessment of Educational Progress reading assessments are higher than previous years. Specifically:

A higher percentage of fourth-grade readers scored at or above Basic than in 1994, 1998, and 2000;

A higher percentage of fourth-grade readers scored at or above Proficient than in 1992 and 1998;

Fourth-grade white students, black students, and Hispanic students had higher average reading scores than in 1994, 1998, and 2000;

The average score gap between white and black fourth graders was smaller than in 1994; and

The gap between white and Hispanic fourth graders narrowed between 2000 and 2003.

In addition, average National Assessment of Educational Progress mathematic scores for fourth and eighth graders were higher in 2003 than in all previous assessment years.

This is a hoot if taken in isolation. The problem with these "improved" scores results from more minorities dropping out of school. If that's progress, I would prefer failure.

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