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Foxfyre wrote:

I honestly think Chic's mantra of school vouchers is the solution. The private schools are not having the problems the public schools are having and they are producing results far superior to the public schools. Why? It isn't funding, teachers salaries, or any of the more common theories of why schools ar failing. Most private schools are paying lower salaries and spend much less per capita than are the public schools.

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What sort of private schools do you mean?

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Foxfyre wrote:

Somewhere earlier in this thread somebody, Brandy?, commented that kids who participate in fine arts, theater, music, sports, etc. overall do better than those who have no such interests. I think the best schools do offer such electives and encourage kids to participate--some use these as an incentive of privilege that the kids have to earn.

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I teach art. Most public schools cut art because the "trogs" in many communities observe the bottom line. The trogs hate frills.

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timberlandko wrote:

plainoldme wrote:
I notice that Timberlandko is back on his same old tune about unions. He thinks every evil can be laid at the feet of the unions.

Nonsense - typical of the source from which it springs. Unions, as they have transmogrified over the past half century or so, merely are parts of the problems.

This smells of an attack. Against the writer!

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plainoldme wrote:

It's called certification. Teachers need to take certain numbers of graduate level hours in order to continue to the next level of certification and they pay for their classes from their own pockets. Most have one or two masters in a short amount of time. That's the anti- to the argument that older teachers should be weeded out.

BTW, on another thread, someone made the stereotypical comment about Asian students and achievement. While subbing for a math teacher, I looked at the grades for his six Asian students. We stereotype Asians as being good at math. Third quarter grades for his six Asian students (trig; pre-calc; two lower level sections of Algebra II) are C-; F; D-;A+; A;B.

We all hate stereotypes. The comment, plainoldme, was made on this thread bu chiczaira.

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McGentrix wrote:

One of the things that make countries like Japan and Sweden and other high-performing countries score high on standardized tests is a national curriculum.

Sounds suspiciously like teaching to the test to me.

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timberlandko wrote:

Now look. The only faction frontin' the straw man argument all students would be held to the same standard are those who defend the status quo.
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If you refer tp cyclop, then there is no defense of the status quo.

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DrewDad wrote:

BTW, criticism is easy. And none of here are your students. Unsolicited criticism of one's preferred writing style could certainly be interpreted as a personal attack. Unless one encounters egregious problems (all caps, no punctuation, no paragraphing) I, for one, certainly feel we should limit our comments to discussion of the subject matter.

See my comment above.

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Atkins wrote:

timberlandko wrote:
You write the way you care to, I'll write as I please. You weigh my style and substance as you will; I'll afford you the same. I find in your style a running tenor marked by pedantic, pedagogic incivillity, and little else of substance. That, of course, is a wholly subjective assessment. Should you wish to pursue style and substance as matters of discussion unto themselves, I submit it were better were we to prosecute that debate in a thread of its own. And that too is mere opinion. You're free to do as you see fit - as are we all - so long as interplay here on this website remains within the bounds of the user agreement.
So, you wish to be misunderstood. You wish to bore people with the construction of your sentences and your arguments. That's fine. Do not be surprised if people simply scroll past your writing.

Should you find what I write difficult to understand, please feel free both to scroll past it it and to refrain from commenting thereon in ignorance - or not; its your choice. Do as you please.

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Now, I wish to refute some of the things you have posted here. To do this, I will return to reading this thread, again. I believe I left off on page eight.

Have at it. Refute away. Do bear in mind the distinction between opinion and factual statement, and match each for each, if you would please; thats just good form.

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Hmm. Is incivility a word?

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Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

One entry found for incivility

Main Entry: in·ci·vil·i·ty
Pronunciation: "in(t)-s&-'vi-l&-tE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French incivilité, from Late Latin incivilitat-, incivilitas, from incivilis, from Latin in- + civilis civil
1 : the quality or state of being uncivil
2 : a rude or discourteous act

See also:
Dictionary.Com: incivility
Hyperdictionary: incivility
American Heritage/Bartleby: incivility
Encarta: incivility

and

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OneLook Dictionary Search: incivility
We found 25 dictionaries that include the word incivility:

General (24 matching dictionaries)

incivility : Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, 10th Edition [home, info]

incivility : Compact Oxford English Dictionary [home, info]

incivility : Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition [home, info]

incivility : Cambridge International Dictionary of English [home, info]

incivility : The Wordsmyth English Dictionary-Thesaurus [home, info]

incivility : The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language [home, info]

incivility : Infoplease Dictionary [home, info]

incivility : Dictionary.com [home, info]

incivility : UltraLingua English Dictionary [home, info]

Incivility : Online Plain Text English Dictionary [home, info]

incivility : Webster's Revised Unabridged, 1913 Edition [home, info]

incivility : Rhymezone [home, info]

INCIVILITY : CMU Pronouncing [home, info]

Incivility : AllWords.com Multi-Lingual Dictionary [home, info]

incivility : Webster's 1828 Dictionary [home, info]

incivility : Dict.cc Englisch/Deutsch Wörterbuch [home, info]

Incivility : Dictionary of English Synonymes and Synonymous or Parallel Expressions [home, info]

incivility : WordNet 1.7 Vocabulary Helper [home, info]

incivility : LookWAYup Translating Dictionary/Thesaurus [home, info]

incivility : UltraLingua Translation Dictionary (English French) [home, info]

incivility : UltraLingua Translation Dictionary (English to Spanish) [home, info]

incivility : UltraLingua Translation Dictionary (English to German) [home, info]

incivility : UltraLingua Translation Dictionary (English to Portuguese) [home, info]

incivility : Lexical FreeNet (shows word connections) [home, info]

Religion (1 matching dictionary)

incivility : Mennonite Low German Dictionary [home, info]

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You see, you insulted me here and yet you scream at others when you think they may have insulted in you.

I submit no such insult occurred; I offered, identifying as such, a subjective assessment of your style of discourse, without mention of or reference to your person. I further submit I do not "scream" at insults directed toward myself or others, I merely point out, sometimes disapprovingly, where they occur.

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All we readers try to do is wade through your imaginary vocabulary.

I understand why some might find difficulty in the enterprise; I feel no need to apologize if my writing falls to the wrong end of the Lichter Scale to suit your convenience.

Atkins wrote:

timberlandko wrote:
plainoldme wrote:
I notice that Timberlandko is back on his same old tune about unions. He thinks every evil can be laid at the feet of the unions.

Nonsense - typical of the source from which it springs. Unions, as they have transmogrified over the past half century or so, merely are parts of the problems.

This smells of an attack. Against the writer!

Poppycock. The thesis is critized, not the presenter of that thesis. Some find the distinction.

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I should like to say that I do not find Timberlake in the least boring. And if his critics are teachers and teach with same degree of incivility and lack of understanding used in their postings, God help our children.

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Brandy wrote:

I should like to say that I do not find Timberlake in the least boring.

Well, thanks Brandy - its a relief to find not everyone here hates me (though that might be a pretty big club) Laughing

Going on, Brandy wrote:

And if his critics are teachers and teach with same degree of incivility and lack of understanding used in their postings, God help our children.

I share your assessment, and your dismay. While I think teachers in general are over-worked, under-paid, and under-appreciated, it appears to me some on this thread who claim to be teachers fit none of those categories.

Of course, perhaps I deserve the castigation some here have cast my way. Lets take a look at another example of a purported insult offered another participant on this thread by my hand:

[url=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1343503#1343503]Back here, timber[/url] wrote:

All ya gotta do with some folks, in order to communicate successfully with 'em (from their point of view), is take their side, accept their points unquestioningly, stipulate there is no basis for dispute, and cease arguing against 'em. In fact, thats the only way, some times, with some folks.

[url=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1345453#1345453]Here, in apparent reference to the above, Atkins[/url] wrote:

When I read this, I immediately thought of Timberlandko's charge that liberals only find communication in posts that support their point of view.

I submit any attribution of political bent in my referenced comment would be something the writer has chosen to infer. I made no such charge that I can see in the words I typed It would be my conjecture the writer well might be of liberal political preference, but I made no such reference, nor other than by indirect implication, did I make reference to the writer, but rather to"some folks". I further posit the writer takes issue with my political lean, and note the writer addresses not the substance of my arguments, but rather dwells on stylistic disagreement. I infer such serves further only to impeach the writer's credentials, providing thereby basis from which to evaluate the writer's commentary. I, as previously acknowledged, and hereby re-stated, offer my personal, subjective assessment that I find the writer's manner of challenge to my argument to be insubstantial and ineffective, apart from being forensically invalid - and a little snarky, too.

But then, mebbe I'm wrong; mebbe that's just the way I see it, and those who recently here have taken me to task are correct in their criticisms. Perhaps its me who's overly sensitive, quick to perceive personal insult where none was offered, and prone to intemperate response. I dunno - could be. Point-of-view is important.

In all respect and honesty, Atkins, I can take no exception to your self-attribution of "frill" as would be applied to educators sharing the point of view you have been championing here. BTW - I don't see education in the arts as a frill, nor do I ascribe to all teachers conducting such courses the property of being "frills"; far from it. I must say, however, your post there betrays an arrogance, prejudice, and elitism quite characterisatic of the sort of educator I unhesitatingly would call a "frill". I wish only the best for the "trogs" running the school district saddled with the obligation of whatever salary a teacher espousing the attitutude you plainly have set forth in this discussion draw therefrom. "Frill" - that nail was hit on the head.

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I'm a little surprised that no one has brought up a recent study that was highlighted in The Christian Science Monitor and The New York Times in the last two or three weeks. In comparing standardized test performance of public school children to private school children, they found that public school students actually did marginally better when controlling for socio-economic background. Statistically, the difference between public school students' test scores and those of their private school counterparts wasn't enough to suggest that public schools are doing a better job, but it certainly sheds very serious doubt on the conventional wisdom that private schools do a better job at educating students.

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Many "private" schools are dumping grounds for kids that get kicked out of public school.

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Interesting, Mills75. I'm curious, though, just how one goes about " ... controlling for socio-economic background ... " when evaluating a standardized test. That seems a bit of an oxymoron. Kids who don't do as well as other kids and who are among less advantaged socio-economic strata are to be held to a lesser standard? Now, certainly, its not the kids' fault where they live or what their background is, but giving them points for that? Nonsense. The object is to bring all kids to an acceptable, rigorous, national standard of educational achievement, not to make allowances for kids who don't meet that standard, for whatever reason. If the kids of a particular demographic don't do as well, straightline, then adjust the teaching methodology, not the scoring methodology.

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timberlandko wrote:

Interesting, Mills75. I'm curious, though, just how one goes about " ... controlling for socio-economic background ... " when evaluating a standardized test. That seems a bit of an oxymoron. Kids who don't do as well as other kids and who are among less advantaged socio-economic strata are to be held to a lesser standard? Now, certainly, its not the kids' fault where they live or what their background is, but giving them points for that? Nonsense. The object is to bring all kids to an acceptable, rigorous, national standard of educational achievement, not to make allowances for kids who don't meet that standard, for whatever reason. If the kids of a particular demographic don't do as well, straightline, then adjust the teaching methodology, not the scoring methodology.

I'm afraid you've missed the point. 'Controlling' for a variable has nothing to do with changing test scores; it's a way for researchers to eliminate confounding factors. For years, the comparison between public and private school test scores has been based on a straight average--all students being counted for the comparison. However, social scientists have known that there's a positive correlation between socio-economic status and academic performance (i.e., wealthier kids do better than poorer kids) for years now, so one really isn't making an accurate comparison of public and private school performance when using a straight average since private school students tend to be from higher socio-economic backgrounds than public school students.

Rather than use a straight average of all students in each type of school, researchers compared the averages of students of similar socio-economic backgrounds: wealthy public school students to wealthy private school students, middle-class public school students to middle-class private school students, and poor public school students to poor private school students. What they found was that public school students, on average, tended to score slightly higher than their private school counterparts.

This has nothing to do with holding some students to a lower standard. What it does show is that there is nothing magically effective about private schools--they are merely benefitting from a clientele with greater resources, and thus greater chances, to succeed academically.

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DrewDad wrote:

Many "private" schools are dumping grounds for kids that get kicked out of public school.

But most aren't.

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Quote, "Rather than use a straight average of all students in each type of school, researchers compared the averages of students of similar socio-economic backgrounds: wealthy public school students to wealthy private school students, middle-class public school students to middle-class private school students, and poor public school students to poor private school students. What they found was that public school students, on average, tended to score slightly higher than their private school counterparts.

This has nothing to do with holding some students to a lower standard. What it does show is that there is nothing magically effective about private schools--they are merely benefitting from a clientele with greater resources, and thus greater chances, to succeed academically."

Sounds reasonable to this reader. Attempting to compare apples and apples is a good start.

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I haven't missed a thing, Mills75. There is no point establishing a standard if the standard is to be applied differently across subsets of groups. THE POINT is not how well Group A does by comparison with Groups B thru whatever, the point is how does any one student or group of students do by comparison with the standard established for all groups. Should the quality control standards for product from a factory in a disadvantaged community be lower than the quality control standard for the same product coming from any other factory in any other environment?

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Quote, "I haven't missed a thing, Mills75. There is no point establishing a standard if the standard is to be applied differently across subsets of groups." That's a nice ideal, but unrealistic at best. When you try to compare "factory output" to quality, there are so many variables involved, it would require the proper management to accomplish some quality control standard that would satisfy consumers in quality and price. Believe it or not, it takes money to produce quality products over inferior ones in addition to all the necessary components to make it work. Our educational system has been trying to solve that dilemma of inequality of education for decades. Saying that the same standards must be applied to all students is unrealistic on the surface. Not all students can ever be "A" students, no matter what kind of testing you use. Some will have different interests and skills; we need to find out what they are and help the students achieve their maximum potential from their interests - not some bureaucrat sitting in some office in Washington DC. Only teachers can do that.

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timberlandko wrote:

I haven't missed a thing, Mills75. There is no point establishing a standard if the standard is to be applied differently across subsets of groups. THE POINT is not how well Group A does by comparison with Groups B thru whatever, the point is how does any one student or group of students do by comparison with the standard established for all groups. Should the quality control standards for product from a factory in a disadvantaged community be lower than the quality control standard for the same product coming from any other factory in any other environment?

The study I mentioned has nothing to do with comparing how well students do with regard to an established criterion; it compares how well students in public schools perform on tests compared to their private school counterparts; however, rather than compare the average of all public school students to all private school students, the researchers divided the students from public and private schools into their socio-economic groups and compared the averages of similar socio-economic groups.

Let's try a different tact--you're focussing on educational outcomes as though schools were factories that could control the raw materials they used in production when public schools have no control whatever over the students they get. Rather than factories, let's imagine two craftsmen: comparing public to private schools using straight averages of all students is like forcing the first craftsman to use cheap, shoddy materials while providing the second craftsman with the highest end materials possible, then declaring that the first craftsman is less skilled when his finished product isn't as good. If you want to know how skilled the craftsmen are relative to each other, you look at what they do with comparable materials.

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Mills, My point is the same; there must exist some level of similarities to look at end product quality.

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