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`OTZI' The Iceman

 
 
Badboy
 
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2005 06:06 am
I have been reading an article about the Iceman discovered in 1991.

He lived as a child in the proximity of Brixen near Bolsano,but as an adult in Vinschgau,possibly in Juval Castle area.

His last journey took him through Tisental.

He was about 46 when he died,which happened in spring.

He eat einkorn,red deer and Alpine Ibex.

He wasn't a shepherd,as previously thought.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 14,199 • Replies: 37
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2005 07:12 am
The finder of the iceman dies about half a year ago (A2K thread))
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 01:11 pm
Recently I saw a preposterous piece of writing proposing to delineate The Iceman Curse. Everyone who had anything to do with finding or examinating or investigating Otzi is supposedly subject to untimely death!

Bronze age superstitions probably haven't changed much.
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Badboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Mar, 2005 07:03 am
May have been a warrior, in view of blood from about 3 other people on his coat and a arrow wound which have began to heal when he died.
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Don1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Mar, 2005 10:44 am
Badboy wrote:
May have been a warrior, in view of blood from about 3 other people on his coat and a arrow wound which have began to heal when he died.


Or he may not have been a warrior and may simply have fought off an attack from several people before succumbing to either the arrow wound or the extreme weather.

I'm always very sceptical about people who present "so called facts" when the truth is they are nothing more than theories, and frequently these "facts" change every few years.

It was an interesting programme, but try to always keep an open mind Badboy, remember it was once a "fact" that Lee Oswald shot JFK Smile
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Jim
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 08:22 am
The BBC has a science program called "Horizon". It seems they share production costs with our PBS show "Nova" - I've seen shows on both programs that are virtually identical.

This past week I had the BBC on in my cabin offshore while brushing my teeth after lunch, and Horizon came on. The subject was the Iceman, and the forensic investigation they were doing. The X-rays and MRIs showed he had been injured in the chest shortly before he died. One theory was he was injured when his village was attacked. He managed to escape, only to die of hypothermia. Horizon then began the background on a more recent theory, but I had to turn the show off and get back to work. Hopefully I'll be able to catch the same Horizon program again to see the rest of the story, or Nova will have the American production of the same show sometime in the future.
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Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 08:35 am
Maybe he was a thief on the run and was attacked while trying to steal a sheep or someone's fermented grains. Too bad there was no video back then, unlike the OJ Simpson chase that will be probably still be watched hundreds of years from now in a history class.
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Paaskynen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 09:17 am
Green Witch wrote:
Too bad there was no video back then, unlike the OJ Simpson chase that will be probably still be watched hundreds of years from now in a history class.


If they had had video 5300 years ago, the tapes would have disintegrated millennia ago, even if they had been frozen together with the iceman.

And OJ, in the great scheme of things he is insignificant; one generation after his death he will have been forgotten for the drama of the future present (which most likely will center heavily on the economic and military situation in China and the accelerating environmental decline of the planet).
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 01:47 pm
Remember most of Iceman's foul weather gear had been carefully crafted--possibly by loving women folk, possibly by the best tailor in Iceman's Neolithic village.

Repairs had been made--perhaps by Iceman himself, perhaps by a helpful but undomesticated female--which were both hasty and unskilled.

The New Yorker had a wonderful story last month about the Iceman's boots. Evidently his Hide & Hay footwear was better for climbing than much modern gear.
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plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2005 07:50 am
Where's Setanta? This is a thread made for him.

I am convinced that the language the Iceman spoke was common Celtic, or at least, proto-Common Celtic.

I heard a news blurb that there was an arrow hole in his back that had previously been missed: hardly surprising, given the leathery state of his skin.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2005 09:03 am
plainoldme wrote:

I heard a news blurb that there was an arrow hole in his back that had previously been missed: hardly surprising, given the leathery state of his skin.


The arrow wound was found in summer 2001 ... and his skin

http://www.archaeologiemuseum.it/images/1-1-2-konserviKl.jpg

is nowadays well kept at -6° C and at 98% humidity

http://www.archaeologiemuseum.it/images/1-1Konservirung.jpg

In the neolithicum, the Alp region had been more populated - as you said correctly, plainoldme - by celtic tribes.

All the findings and the iceman himself tell us exactly nothing about the language he once articulated.
He spoke almost certainly not Indo-European, since those people arrived later.
So we can only say that he spoke some kind of pre-Indo-European language, perhaps one, which is farest similar to the Basque.

(But you are correct: set will explain all a lot better and especially well-founded!)
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Badboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 04:14 am
Rhaetian may have been his approxiamate languague.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 07:48 am
Rhaetian, or Rhaeto-Romanic (Lengua Rética) is rather impossible: the origins of the language go back to the Roman Empire, when their legions marched into Rhaetia. :wink:
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plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 01:09 pm
Why have you pushed Common Celtic so late in time?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 01:14 pm
plainoldme wrote:
Why have you pushed Common Celtic so late in time?


You mean exactly what here (of my posts)?
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Badboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 06:49 am
Wasn't Rhaetian a non-INDO-EUROPEAN Languague?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 07:30 am
Badboy wrote:
Wasn't Rhaetian a non-INDO-EUROPEAN Languague?


No, not at all:

Quote:
ISO/DIS 639-3: roh
Romansch
[...]
Alternate names: Rheto-Romance, Rhaeto-Romance, Romansh, Romanche
Dialects: Lower Engadine (Vallader-Lower Engadine, Grisons), Upper Engadine (Puter-Upper Engadine), Sursilvan (Surselva, Sutsilvan-Hinterrhein), Sursilvan-Oberland, Surmiran-Albula. Friulian, Ladin, and Romansch are separate languages (R. A. Hall, Jr., personal communication 1978). Lexical similarity 78% with Italian and French, 76% with Catalan, 74% with Spanish, Sardinian, and Portuguese, 72% with Romanian.
Classification: Indo-European, Italic, Romance, Italo-Western, Western, Gallo-Iberian, Gallo-Romance, Gallo-Rhaetian, Rhaetian
[...]
Source

Quote:
The Rhaetian, or Rhaeto-Romanic, dialects derive their conventional name from the ancient Raetics of the Adige area, who, according to classical authors, spoke an Etruscan dialect. In fact, there is nothing to connect Raetic with Rhaetian except geographic location, and some scholars would deny that the different Rhaetian dialects have much in common, though others claim that they are remnants of a once-widespread Germano-Romance tongue. Three isolated regions continue to use Rhaetian.

In Switzerland, Romansh, the standard dialect of Graubünden canton, has been a "national" language, used for cantonal but not federal purposes, since 1938. A referendum in 1996 accorded it semiofficial status. The proportion of Rhaetian speakers in Graubünden fell from two-fifths in 1880 to one-fourth in 1970, with a corresponding increase in the Italian-speaking population. In the mid-1990s speakers of Romansh formed about 0.6 percent of the population of Switzerland. Nevertheless, interest in Romansh remains keen, and there are several Romansh newspapers.

The main Romansh dialects are usually known as Sursilvan and Sutsilvan, spoken on the western and eastern banks of the Rhine, respectively. Another important Swiss Rhaetian dialect, Engadine, is spoken in the Protestant Inn River valley, east of which there is a German-speaking area that has encroached on former Romance territory since the 16th century. The dialects from the extreme east and west of the Swiss Rhaetian area are mutually intelligible only with difficulty, though each dialect is intelligible to its neighbour.

Sursilvan (spoken around the town of Disentis) has one text dating from the beginning of the 12th century but then nothing else until the work of Gian Travers (1483-1563), a Protestant writer. The Upper Engadine dialect (spoken around Samedan and Saint Moritz) is attested from the 16th century, notably with the Swiss Lutheran Jacob Bifrun's translation of the New Testament. Both dialects have had a flourishing local literature since the 19th century. In many ways the Swiss Rhaetian dialects resemble French, and speakers seem to feel more at home with French than with Italian.

In the Trento-Alto Adige region of northeastern Italy, some 30,000 persons speak Ladin. Some Italian scholars have claimed that it is really an Italian (Veneto-Lombard) dialect. The other main language spoken in this now semiautonomous region, much of which was Austrian until 1919, is German, a non-Romance language. Although sometimes said to be threatened with extinction, Ladin appears to retain its vitality among the mountain peasantry. Newspapers are published in Ladin, and the language is comprehensible without too much difficulty to a student of Romance languages. As it appears that these remote valleys were very sparsely populated until the 1960s, the number of speakers there is likely to have grown. Since the 1940s Ladin has been taught in primary schools in the Gardena and Badia valleys, in different conventionalized dialect forms. Although a Ladin document of the 14th century (from the Venosta Valley to the west of the modern Ladin-speaking region) is known from references, the earliest written material in Ladin is an 18th-century word list of the Badia dialect. There are also a few literary and religious texts.

In Italy, north of Venice, stretching to the Slovenian border on the east and to the Austrian border on the north, its western extent almost reaching the Piave River, is the Friulian dialect area, centred around the city of Udine, with some 700,000 speakers. This dialect is much closer to Italian than are Ladin or Romansh, and it is often claimed to be a Venetian dialect. Venetian proper has gained ground at the expense of Friulian to both the east and west since the 1800s. Friulian retains its vitality in the well-populated, industrialized region, however, and supports a vigorous local literature; its most notable poet was Pieri Zorut (1792-1867). The first written specimen of Friulian (apart from a doubtful 12th-century inscription) is a short text dating to approximately 1300, followed by numerous documents in prose, as well as some poems, up to the end of the 16th century, when a rich poetic tradition began.
source: "Romance languages." Encyclopædia Britannica from Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service.
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Badboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 07:35 am
So he properly spoke Raetic.
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plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 09:04 am
Ok, so the Iceman is, I believe, 3000 years old. 2000 years ago, the Latin and Common Celtic languages were well established.

Can not place the advent of modern humans in Europe all that well. And no one can ever be certain about those pre-Indo-European languages.

Considering the recent work that shows that there are no races, I'm wondering just how much pre-Indo-European actitivity there was in Europe. We don't know who the Etruscans were. Nor do we know where the BAsques came from.

And, supposedly, Common Celtic was the next Indo-European language to emerge after Latin.
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Badboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 04:04 am
There is some genetic evidence to say the Basques came from Siberia.
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