Venezuela Watch

I already have done so.

Perhaps you would consider showing us why the results of Chavez' policies will be any different from those achieved by other authoritarian socialists or corrupt populists (whichever he turns out to be.)

It wasn't directed to you, but at the author and his ilk.

Reading this (below) I didnt know whether to laugh out loud or to

It does seem, to me, like the "People's Republic of Camden" is more interested in reliving those heady days of solidarity with Nicaragua than the actual conditions in Venezuela.

In a way I'm a bit envious, really, of their ability to indulge themselves like that - without, apparently, any reflective self-consciousness about whatever happened to their causes from back then (Castro? Ortega?). I wouldnt be able to.



See also: Revolution in the Camden air as Chávez - with amigo Ken - gets a hero's welcome

Do you mean like THIS:

Please point out were any of this is not true I will supply a mountain of proof like I did with the IMF policies.

1953

Iran - CIA overthrows the democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh in a military coup, after he threatened to nationalize British oil. The CIA replaces him with a dictator, the Shah of Iran, whose secret police, SAVAK, is as brutal as the Gestapo.

Operation MK-ULTRA ?- Inspired by North Korea's brainwashing program, the CIA begins experiments on mind control. The most notorious part of this project involves giving LSD and other drugs to American subjects without their knowledge or against their will, causing several to commit suicide. However, the operation involves far more than this. Funded in part by the Rockefeller and Ford foundations, research includes propaganda, brainwashing, public relations, advertising, hypnosis, and other forms of suggestion.

1954

Guatemala ?- CIA overthrows the democratically elected Jacob Arbenz in a military coup. Arbenz has threatened to nationalize the Rockefeller-owned United Fruit Company, in which CIA Director Allen Dulles also owns stock. Arbenz is replaced with a series of right-wing dictators whose bloodthirsty policies will kill over 100,000 Guatemalans in the next 40 years.

1954-1958

North Vietnam ?- CIA officer Edward Lansdale spends four years trying to overthrow the communist government of North Vietnam, using all the usual dirty tricks. The CIA also attempts to legitimize a tyrannical puppet regime in South Vietnam, headed by Ngo Dinh Diem. These efforts fail to win the hearts and minds of the South Vietnamese because the Diem government is opposed to true democracy, land reform and poverty reduction measures. The CIA's continuing failure results in escalating American intervention, culminating in the Vietnam War.

1956

Hungary ?- Radio Free Europe incites Hungary to revolt by broadcasting Khruschev's Secret Speech, in which he denounced Stalin. It also hints that American aid will help the Hungarians fight. This aid fails to materialize as Hungarians launch a doomed armed revolt, which only invites a major Soviet invasion. The conflict kills 7,000 Soviets and 30,000 Hungarians.

1957-1973

Laos ?- The CIA carries out approximately one coup per year trying to nullify Laos' democratic elections. The problem is the Pathet Lao, a leftist group with enough popular support to be a member of any coalition government. In the late 50s, the CIA even creates an "Armee Clandestine" of Asian mercenaries to attack the Pathet Lao. After the CIA's army suffers numerous defeats, the U.S. starts bombing, dropping more bombs on Laos than all the U.S. bombs dropped in World War II. A quarter of all Laotians will eventually become refugees, many living in caves.

1959

Haiti ?- The U.S. military helps "Papa Doc" Duvalier become dictator of Haiti. He creates his own private police force, the "Tonton Macoutes," who terrorize the population with machetes. They will kill over 100,000 during the Duvalier family reign. The U.S. does not protest their dismal human rights record.

1961

The Bay of Pigs ?- The CIA sends 1,500 Cuban exiles to invade Castro's Cuba. But "Operation Mongoose" fails, due to poor planning, security and backing. The planners had imagined that the invasion will spark a popular uprising against Castro -- which never happens. A promised American air strike also never occurs. This is the CIA's first public setback, causing President Kennedy to fire CIA Director Allen Dulles.

Dominican Republic ?- The CIA assassinates Rafael Trujillo, a murderous dictator Washington has supported since 1930. Trujillo's business interests have grown so large (about 60 percent of the economy) that they have begun competing with American business interests.

Ecuador ?- The CIA-backed military forces the democratically elected President Jose Velasco to resign. Vice President Carlos Arosemana replaces him; the CIA fills the now vacant vice presidency with its own man.

Congo (Zaire) ?- The CIA assassinates the democratically elected Patrice Lumumba. However, public support for Lumumba's politics runs so high that the CIA cannot clearly install his opponents in power. Four years of political turmoil follow.

1963

Dominican Republic ?- The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Juan Bosch in a military coup. The CIA installs a repressive, right-wing junta.

Ecuador ?- A CIA-backed military coup overthrows President Arosemana, whose independent (not socialist) policies have become unacceptable to Washington. A military junta assumes command, cancels the 1964 elections, and begins abusing human rights.

1964

Brazil ?- A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the democratically elected government of Joao Goulart. The junta that replaces it will, in the next two decades, become one of the most bloodthirsty in history. General Castelo Branco will create Latin America's first death squads, or bands of secret police who hunt down "communists" for torture, interrogation and murder. Often these "communists" are no more than Branco's political opponents. Later it is revealed that the CIA trains the death squads.

1965

Indonesia ?- The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Sukarno with a military coup. The CIA has been trying to eliminate Sukarno since 1957, using everything from attempted assassination to sexual intrigue, for nothing more than his declaring neutrality in the Cold War. His successor, General Suharto, will massacre between 500,000 to 1 million civilians accused of being "communist." The CIA supplies the names of countless suspects.

Dominican Republic ?- A popular rebellion breaks out, promising to reinstall Juan Bosch as the country's elected leader. The revolution is crushed when U.S. Marines land to uphold the military regime by force. The CIA directs everything behind the scenes.

Greece ?- With the CIA's backing, the king removes George Papandreous as prime minister. Papandreous has failed to vigorously support U.S. interests in Greece.

Congo (Zaire) ?- A CIA-backed military coup installs Mobutu Sese Seko as dictator. The hated and repressive Mobutu exploits his desperately poor country for billions.

1966

The Ramparts Affair ?- The radical magazine Ramparts begins a series of unprecedented anti-CIA articles. Among their scoops: the CIA has paid the University of Michigan $25 million dollars to hire "professors" to train South Vietnamese students in covert police methods. MIT and other universities have received similar payments. Ramparts also reveals that the National Students' Association is a CIA front. Students are sometimes recruited through blackmail and bribery, including draft deferments.

1967

Greece ?- A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the government two days before the elections. The favorite to win was George Papandreous, the liberal candidate. During the next six years, the "reign of the colonels" ?- backed by the CIA ?- will usher in the widespread use of torture and murder against political opponents. When a Greek ambassador objects to President Johnson about U.S. plans for Cypress, Johnson tells him: "**** your parliament and your constitution."

Operation PHEONIX ?- The CIA helps South Vietnamese agents identify and then murder alleged Viet Cong leaders operating in South Vietnamese villages. According to a 1971 congressional report, this operation killed about 20,000 "Viet Cong."

1968

Operation CHAOS ?- The CIA has been illegally spying on American citizens since 1959, but with Operation CHAOS, President Johnson dramatically boosts the effort. CIA agents go undercover as student radicals to spy on and disrupt campus organizations protesting the Vietnam War. They are searching for Russian instigators, which they never find. CHAOS will eventually spy on 7,000 individuals and 1,000 organizations.

Bolivia ?- A CIA-organized military operation captures legendary guerilla Che Guevara. The CIA wants to keep him alive for interrogation, but the Bolivian government executes him to prevent worldwide calls for clemency.

1969

Uruguay ?- The notorious CIA torturer Dan Mitrione arrives in Uruguay, a country torn with political strife. Whereas right-wing forces previously used torture only as a last resort, Mitrione convinces them to use it as a routine, widespread practice. "The precise pain, in the precise place, in the precise amount, for the desired effect," is his motto. The torture techniques he teaches to the death squads rival the Nazis'. He eventually becomes so feared that revolutionaries will kidnap and murder him a year later.

1970

Cambodia ?- The CIA overthrows Prince Sahounek, who is highly popular among Cambodians for keeping them out of the Vietnam War. He is replaced by CIA puppet Lon Nol, who immediately throws Cambodian troops into battle. This unpopular move strengthens once minor opposition parties like the Khmer Rouge, which achieves power in 1975 and massacres millions of its own people.

1971

Bolivia ?- After half a decade of CIA-inspired political turmoil, a CIA-backed military coup overthrows the leftist President Juan Torres. In the next two years, dictator Hugo Banzer will have over 2,000 political opponents arrested without trial, then tortured, raped and executed.

Haiti ?- "Papa Doc" Duvalier dies, leaving his 19-year old son "Baby Doc" Duvalier the dictator of Haiti. His son continues his bloody reign with full knowledge of the CIA.

1972

The Case-Zablocki Act ?- Congress passes an act requiring congressional review of executive agreements. In theory, this should make CIA operations more accountable. In fact, it is only marginally effective.

Cambodia ?- Congress votes to cut off CIA funds for its secret war in Cambodia.

Wagergate Break-in ?- President Nixon sends in a team of burglars to wiretap Democratic offices at Watergate. The team members have extensive CIA histories, including James McCord, E. Howard Hunt and five of the Cuban burglars. They work for the Committee to Reelect the President (CREEP), which does dirty work like disrupting Democratic campaigns and laundering Nixon's illegal campaign contributions. CREEP's activities are funded and organized by another CIA front, the Mullen Company.

1973

Chile ?- The CIA overthrows and assassinates Salvador Allende, Latin America's first democratically elected socialist leader. The problems begin when Allende nationalizes American-owned firms in Chile. ITT offers the CIA $1 million for a coup (reportedly refused). The CIA replaces Allende with General Augusto Pinochet, who will torture and murder thousands of his own countrymen in a crackdown on labor leaders and the political left.

CIA begins internal investigations ?- William Colby, the Deputy Director for Operations, orders all CIA personnel to report any and all illegal activities they know about. This information is later reported to Congress.

Watergate Scandal ?- The CIA's main collaborating newspaper in America, The Washington Post, reports Nixon's crimes long before any other newspaper takes up the subject. The two reporters, Woodward and Bernstein, make almost no mention of the CIA's many fingerprints all over the scandal. It is later revealed that Woodward was a Naval intelligence briefer to the White House, and knows many important intelligence figures, including General Alexander Haig. His main source, "Deep Throat," is probably one of those.

CIA Director Helms Fired ?- President Nixon fires CIA Director Richard Helms for failing to help cover up the Watergate scandal. Helms and Nixon have always disliked each other. The new CIA director is William Colby, who is relatively more open to CIA reform.

1974

CHAOS exposed ?- Pulitzer prize winning journalist Seymour Hersh publishes a story about Operation CHAOS, the domestic surveillance and infiltration of anti-war and civil rights groups in the U.S. The story sparks national outrage.

Angleton fired ?- Congress holds hearings on the illegal domestic spying efforts of James Jesus Angleton, the CIA's chief of counterintelligence. His efforts included mail-opening campaigns and secret surveillance of war protesters. The hearings result in his dismissal from the CIA.

House clears CIA in Watergate ?- The House of Representatives clears the CIA of any complicity in Nixon's Watergate break-in.

The Hughes Ryan Act ?- Congress passes an amendment requiring the president to report nonintelligence CIA operations to the relevant congressional committees in a timely fashion.

1975

Australia ?- The CIA helps topple the democratically elected, left-leaning government of Prime Minister Edward Whitlam. The CIA does this by giving an ultimatum to its Governor-General, John Kerr. Kerr, a longtime CIA collaborator, exercises his constitutional right to dissolve the Whitlam government. The Governor-General is a largely ceremonial position appointed by the Queen; the Prime Minister is democratically elected. The use of this archaic and never-used law stuns the nation.

Angola ?- Eager to demonstrate American military resolve after its defeat in Vietnam, Henry Kissinger launches a CIA-backed war in Angola. Contrary to Kissinger's assertions, Angola is a country of little strategic importance and not seriously threatened by communism. The CIA backs the brutal leader of UNITAS, Jonas Savimbi. This polarizes Angolan politics and drives his opponents into the arms of Cuba and the Soviet Union for survival. Congress will cut off funds in 1976, but the CIA is able to run the war off the books until 1984, when funding is legalized again. This entirely pointless war kills over 300,000 Angolans.

"The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence" ?- Victor Marchetti and John Marks publish this whistle-blowing history of CIA crimes and abuses. Marchetti has spent 14 years in the CIA, eventually becoming an executive assistant to the Deputy Director of Intelligence. Marks has spent five years as an intelligence official in the State Department.

"Inside the Company" ?- Philip Agee publishes a diary of his life inside the CIA. Agee has worked in covert operations in Latin America during the 60s, and details the crimes in which he took part.

Congress investigates CIA wrong-doing ?- Public outrage compels Congress to hold hearings on CIA crimes. Senator Frank Church heads the Senate investigation ("The Church Committee"), and Representative Otis Pike heads the House investigation. (Despite a 98 percent incumbency reelection rate, both Church and Pike are defeated in the next elections.) The investigations lead to a number of reforms intended to increase the CIA's accountability to Congress, including the creation of a standing Senate committee on intelligence. However, the reforms prove ineffective, as the Iran/Contra scandal will show. It turns out the CIA can control, deal with or sidestep Congress with ease.

The Rockefeller Commission ?- In an attempt to reduce the damage done by the Church Committee, President Ford creates the "Rockefeller Commission" to whitewash CIA history and propose toothless reforms. The commission's namesake, Vice President Nelson Rockefeller, is himself a major CIA figure. Five of the commission's eight members are also members of the Council on Foreign Relations, a CIA-dominated organization.

1979

Iran ?- The CIA fails to predict the fall of the Shah of Iran, a longtime CIA puppet, and the rise of Muslim fundamentalists who are furious at the CIA's backing of SAVAK, the Shah's bloodthirsty secret police. In revenge, the Muslims take 52 Americans hostage in the U.S. embassy in Tehran.

Afghanistan ?- The Soviets invade Afghanistan. The CIA immediately begins supplying arms to any faction willing to fight the occupying Soviets. Such indiscriminate arming means that when the Soviets leave Afghanistan, civil war will erupt. Also, fanatical Muslim extremists now possess state-of-the-art weaponry. One of these is Sheik Abdel Rahman, who will become involved in the World Trade Center bombing in New York.

El Salvador ?- An idealistic group of young military officers, repulsed by the massacre of the poor, overthrows the right-wing government. However, the U.S. compels the inexperienced officers to include many of the old guard in key positions in their new government. Soon, things are back to "normal" ?- the military government is repressing and killing poor civilian protesters. Many of the young military and civilian reformers, finding themselves powerless, resign in disgust.

Nicaragua ?- Anastasios Samoza II, the CIA-backed dictator, falls. The Marxist Sandinistas take over government, and they are initially popular because of their commitment to land and anti-poverty reform. Samoza had a murderous and hated personal army called the National Guard. Remnants of the Guard will become the Contras, who fight a CIA-backed guerilla war against the Sandinista government throughout the 1980s.

1980

El Salvador ?- The Archbishop of San Salvador, Oscar Romero, pleads with President Carter "Christian to Christian" to stop aiding the military government slaughtering his people. Carter refuses. Shortly afterwards, right-wing leader Roberto D'Aubuisson has Romero shot through the heart while saying Mass. The country soon dissolves into civil war, with the peasants in the hills fighting against the military government. The CIA and U.S. Armed Forces supply the government with overwhelming military and intelligence superiority. CIA-trained death squads roam the countryside, committing atrocities like that of El Mazote in 1982, where they massacre between 700 and 1000 men, women and children. By 1992, some 63,000 Salvadorans will be killed.

1981

Iran/Contra Begins ?- The CIA begins selling arms to Iran at high prices, using the profits to arm the Contras fighting the Sandinista government in Nicaragua. President Reagan vows that the Sandinistas will be "pressured" until "they say ?'uncle.'" The CIA's Freedom Fighter's Manual disbursed to the Contras includes instruction on economic sabotage, propaganda, extortion, bribery, blackmail, interrogation, torture, murder and political assassination.

1983

Honduras ?- The CIA gives Honduran military officers the Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual - 1983, which teaches how to torture people. Honduras' notorious "Battalion 316" then uses these techniques, with the CIA's full knowledge, on thousands of leftist dissidents. At least 184 are murdered.

1984

The Boland Amendment ?- The last of a series of Boland Amendments is passed. These amendments have reduced CIA aid to the Contras; the last one cuts it off completely. However, CIA Director William Casey is already prepared to "hand off" the operation to Colonel Oliver North, who illegally continues supplying the Contras through the CIA's informal, secret, and self-financing network. This includes "humanitarian aid" donated by Adolph Coors and William Simon, and military aid funded by Iranian arms sales.

1986

Eugene Hasenfus ?- Nicaragua shoots down a C-123 transport plane carrying military supplies to the Contras. The lone survivor, Eugene Hasenfus, turns out to be a CIA employee, as are the two dead pilots. The airplane belongs to Southern Air Transport, a CIA front. The incident makes a mockery of President Reagan's claims that the CIA is not illegally arming the Contras.

Iran/Contra Scandal ?- Although the details have long been known, the Iran/Contra scandal finally captures the media's attention in 1986. Congress holds hearings, and several key figures (like Oliver North) lie under oath to protect the intelligence community. CIA Director William Casey dies of brain cancer before Congress can question him. All reforms enacted by Congress after the scandal are purely cosmetic.

Haiti ?- Rising popular revolt in Haiti means that "Baby Doc" Duvalier will remain "President for Life" only if he has a short one. The U.S., which hates instability in a puppet country, flies the despotic Duvalier to the South of France for a comfortable retirement. The CIA then rigs the upcoming elections in favor of another right-wing military strongman. However, violence keeps the country in political turmoil for another four years. The CIA tries to strengthen the military by creating the National Intelligence Service (SIN), which suppresses popular revolt through torture and assassination.

1989

Panama ?- The U.S. invades Panama to overthrow a dictator of its own making, General Manuel Noriega. Noriega has been on the CIA's payroll since 1966, and has been transporting drugs with the CIA's knowledge since 1972. By the late 80s, Noriega's growing independence and intransigence have angered Washington… so out he goes.

1990

Haiti ?- Competing against 10 comparatively wealthy candidates, leftist priest Jean-Bertrand Aristide captures 68 percent of the vote. After only eight months in power, however, the CIA-backed military deposes him. More military dictators brutalize the country, as thousands of Haitian refugees escape the turmoil in barely seaworthy boats. As popular opinion calls for Aristide's return, the CIA begins a disinformation campaign painting the courageous priest as mentally unstable.

1991

The Gulf War ?- The U.S. liberates Kuwait from Iraq. But Iraq's dictator, Saddam Hussein, is another creature of the CIA. With U.S. encouragement, Hussein invaded Iran in 1980. During this costly eight-year war, the CIA built up Hussein's forces with sophisticated arms, intelligence, training and financial backing. This cemented Hussein's power at home, allowing him to crush the many internal rebellions that erupted from time to time, sometimes with poison gas. It also gave him all the military might he needed to conduct further adventurism ?- in Kuwait, for example.

The Fall of the Soviet Union ?- The CIA fails to predict this most important event of the Cold War. This suggests that it has been so busy undermining governments that it hasn't been doing its primary job: gathering and analyzing information. The fall of the Soviet Union also robs the CIA of its reason for existence: fighting communism. This leads some to accuse the CIA of intentionally failing to predict the downfall of the Soviet Union. Curiously, the intelligence community's budget is not significantly reduced after the demise of communism.

1992

Economic Espionage ?- In the years following the end of the Cold War, the CIA is increasingly used for economic espionage. This involves stealing the technological secrets of competing foreign companies and giving them to American ones. Given the CIA's clear preference for dirty tricks over mere information gathering, the possibility of serious criminal behavior is very great indeed.

1993

Haiti ?- The chaos in Haiti grows so bad that President Clinton has no choice but to remove the Haitian military dictator, Raoul Cedras, on threat of U.S. invasion. The U.S. occupiers do not arrest Haiti's military leaders for crimes against humanity, but instead ensure their safety and rich retirements. Aristide is returned to power only after being forced to accept an agenda favorable to the country's ruling class.

EPILOGUE

In a speech before the CIA celebrating its 50th anniversary, President Clinton said: "By necessity, the American people will never know the full story of your courage."

Clinton's is a common defense of the CIA: namely, the American people should stop criticizing the CIA because they don't know what it really does. This, of course, is the heart of the problem in the first place. An agency that is above criticism is also above moral behavior and reform. Its secrecy and lack of accountability allows its corruption to grow unchecked.

Furthermore, Clinton's statement is simply untrue. The history of the agency is growing painfully clear, especially with the declassification of historical CIA documents. We may not know the details of specific operations, but we do know, quite well, the general behavior of the CIA. These facts began emerging nearly two decades ago at an ever-quickening pace. Today we have a remarkably accurate and consistent picture, repeated in country after country, and verified from countless different directions.

The CIA's response to this growing knowledge and criticism follows a typical historical pattern. (Indeed, there are remarkable parallels to the Medieval Church's fight against the Scientific Revolution.) The first journalists and writers to reveal the CIA's criminal behavior were harassed and censored if they were American writers, and tortured and murdered if they were foreigners. (See Philip Agee's On the Run for an example of early harassment.) However, over the last two decades the tide of evidence has become overwhelming, and the CIA has found that it does not have enough fingers to plug every hole in the dike. This is especially true in the age of the Internet, where information flows freely among millions of people. Since censorship is impossible, the Agency must now defend itself with apologetics. Clinton's "Americans will never know" defense is a prime example.

Another common apologetic is that "the world is filled with unsavory characters, and we must deal with them if we are to protect American interests at all." There are two things wrong with this. First, it ignores the fact that the CIA has regularly spurned alliances with defenders of democracy, free speech and human rights, preferring the company of military dictators and tyrants. The CIA had moral options available to them, but did not take them.

Second, this argument begs several questions. The first is: "Which American interests?" The CIA has courted right-wing dictators because they allow wealthy Americans to exploit the country's cheap labor and resources. But poor and middle-class Americans pay the price whenever they fight the wars that stem from CIA actions, from Vietnam to the Gulf War to Panama. The second begged question is: "Why should American interests come at the expense of other peoples' human rights?"

The CIA should be abolished, its leadership dismissed and its relevant members tried for crimes against humanity. Our intelligence community should be rebuilt from the ground up, with the goal of collecting and analyzing information. As for covert action, there are two moral options. The first one is to eliminate covert action completely. But this gives jitters to people worried about the Adolf Hitlers of the world. So a second option is that we can place covert action under extensive and true democratic oversight. For example, a bipartisan Congressional Committee of 40 members could review and veto all aspects of CIA operations upon a majority or super-majority vote. Which of these two options is best may be the subject of debate, but one thing is clear: like dictatorship, like monarchy, unaccountable covert operations should die like the dinosaurs they are

OK Amigo, let's accept -for the argument's sake, at least- that the CIA is evil and was even more evil during the Cold War.

Does this make Chavez a saint or something?

Could we move a bit beyond the Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader level?

If this entirely irrelevant screed is taken at face value the CIA was responsible for nearly every significant event over the past 40 yrears in the hemisphere from Trujillo's assasination to the coup that deposed President Goulart of Brazil thirty years ago. A great deal of this stuff is nonsense taken from fantasy conspiracy sites that serve a certain paranoid, conspiracy-addicted mindset -- one that our friend Amigo appears to embrace.

I don't agree that the CIA is or was evil, unless your standard is that of Mother Theresa. If instead your standard is the practices of real governments in the hemisphere, from Canada to Mexico, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia, Argentina, and Chile -- not to mention lesser lights suvh as Haiti, The Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Paraguay, and others, then the CIA most assuredly is not evil at all. Indeed it is and has been a force for freedom and justice.

Evidently Amigo fancies that he has convincingly demonstrated the merit of Chavez' programs and rule in poor, unfortunate Venezuela. I think not.

Chavez is the Democratically elected President of Venezuela. Chavez is what the people of Venezuela want. Democracy! is that or is that not what we want?

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Summary, CIA Electoral Interventions, and Nicaragua as a Model for Venezuela

Summary

It is no secret that the government of the United States is carrying out a program of operations in favor of the Venezuelan political opposition to remove President Hugo Chávez Frías and the coalition of parties that supports him from power. The budget for this program, initiated by the administration of Bill Clinton and intensified under George W. Bush, has risen from some $2 million in 2001 to $9 million in 2005, and it disguises itself as activities to "promote democracy," "resolve conflicts," and "strengthen civic life." It consists of providing money, training, counsel and direction to an extensive network of political parties, NGO's, mass media, unions, and businessmen, all determined to end the bolivarian revolutionary process. The program has clear short, medium, and long-term goals, and adapts easily to changes in the fluid Venezuelan political process.

Cont:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/posting.php?mode=reply&t=45766

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$11 Million in American money to sabotage a Democracy?

Pick out the most ridiculous "paranoid conspiracy addicted fantasy" and we will see. Just like when we discussed the policies of the IMF.

This is the second time I have challenged you to dispute anything on that list. Do you have anything to prove the policies practised in that list are a lie.

Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader are science fiction characters. The pain, death and suffering caused by the covert foreign policies carried out by the CIA behind the backs of Americans in south America are real.

Please point out where I am misinforming myself.

If you do not understand or refuse to acknowledge the realities of these policies along with the policies of the IMF. There is no way you can understand or comprehend what is going on in south America. In my opinion it is highly immoral to deny the reality of the injustice suffered by these people at the hands of our own government.

The same way any it is highly immoral to deny any injustice or atrocity done in the name of any religion, ideology or nationalism.

---------------

1980

El Salvador ?- The Archbishop of San Salvador, Oscar Romero, pleads with President Carter "Christian to Christian" to stop aiding the military government slaughtering his people. Carter refuses. Shortly afterwards, right-wing leader Roberto D'Aubuisson has Romero shot through the heart while saying Mass. The country soon dissolves into civil war, with the peasants in the hills fighting against the military government. The CIA and U.S. Armed Forces supply the government with overwhelming military and intelligence superiority. CIA-trained death squads roam the countryside, committing atrocities like that of El Mazote in 1982, where they massacre between 700 and 1000 men, women and children. By 1992, some 63,000 Salvadorans will be killed.



The Atlacatl Battalion
was the first Salvadoran
unit trained by U.S. Army
Special Forces advisors.

"The Yankees' Battalion"

During the early 1980s, the entire Salvadoran security apparatus, including the National Guard, the Treasury Police, the Army and the Air Force, received financial backing and expert instruction from the United States. But the support bestowed on the Atlacatl Battalion was in many ways unique.

Early in 1981, advisers from the U.S. Army Special Forces were sent to hone the counterinsurgency skills of the Salvadorans. The training program was a key element of the Reagan administration's drive to "professionalize" the anti-guerrilla operations of El Salvador's military, to ensure it's ability to stave off insurrection. The first unit trained was Atlacatl, which was to become what the U.S. instructors called an "immediate reaction infantry battalion" -- a search-and-destroy force deployed to "clean up" contested areas.

The commander of Atlacatl, Lieutenant Colonel Domingo Monterrosa, was an avid student of counterinsurgency methods and a rabid warrior. As a young soldier, Monterrosa had trained at the U.S. Army's School of the Americas, then located in Panama. If he acquired any understanding of the rights of noncombatants from his U.S. advisers, Monterrosa did not show it. Six months after his battalion's total war on El Mozote, Monterrosa told Washington Post reporter Christopher Dickey that in areas where the FMLN was popular, civilian casualties were to be expected:

"It is natural that in these subversive redoubts the armed men are not there alone. That is to say, they have their 'masses' -- people, women, old people, or children, including the children who are [guerrilla] messengers, or the wives, and they are all mixed up with the subversives themselves, with the armed ones. So in the clashes ... it's natural that there were a series of people killed, some without weapons, including some women, and I understand some children."

Mark Danner quotes one of Atlacatl's Special Forces trainers who voiced similar sentiments in regard to the indiscriminate killings that occurred during Operation Rescue:

"El Mozote was in a place, in a zone, that was one hundred percent controlled by the guerrillas. You try to dry those areas up. You know you're not going to be able to work with the civilian population up there, you're never going to get a permanent base there. So you just decide to kill everybody. That'll scare everybody else out of the zone. It's done out of frustration more than anything else."

The fact that El Salvador's security forces practiced total war against civilians, be they political opponents or suspect peasants, was also understood by at least some U.S. officials. According to Todd Greentree, a junior official at the U.S. embassy in San Salvador, "the hard-core guys" in the Army believed they were fighting "a virus" of Marxism. "They'd always say 'a cancer' -- you know, 'Communism is a cancer.' And so if you're a guerrilla they don't just kill you, they kill your cousin, you know, everybody in the family, to make sure the cancer is cut out."

The dirty war waged by the American-backed battalion would soon come under scrutiny in the United States, where reports of atrocities in El Salvador posed a threat to continued congressional support of the war effort. Three weeks after the massacre, New York Times reporter Ray Bonner visited El Mozote to confirm reports by refugees and Radio Veneceremos that something catastrophic had happened there. He described what he saw in his 1984 book, Weakness and Deceit: U.S. Policy and El Salvador:

"The carnage was everywhere. I saw skulls, rib cages, femurs, tibias protruding from the rubble of cracked roofing tiles, charred beams, children's toys, crushed sewing machines, and kitchen utensils. Fourteen bodies lay in a heap at the edge of a cornfield, under the swooping green leaves of banana trees."

Bonner reported his observations in a Times story on January 27, 1982. "From interviews with people who live in this small mountain village and surrounding hamlets, it is clear that a massacre of major proportions occurred here last month," the front-page article began. Bonner described the traces of butchery that he had witnessed in the ruins of El Mozote, and noted peasant statements that the Atlacatl Battalion was responsible for the killing. Residents of the region had supplied him with a list of 733 peasants killed by the Army in and around El Mozote.

On the same day the Washington Post published a similar report by Alma Guillermoprieto, also on page one. Her article added detail to the story and contained survivor Rufina Amaya's somber account of the systematic extermination of the people of El Mozote: "The soldiers had no fury. They just observed the lieutenant's orders. They were cold. It wasn't a battle."

In Washington, the Reagan administration scrambled to discredit press accounts of the massacre and preserve the U.S. military aid package. In Morazan, the Salvadorans who survived the latest bloodbath understood who was funding the troops that terrorized them. In Weakness and Deceit, Bonner quotes a peasant song memorializing the massacre:

http://www.parascope.com/articles/0197/el_mozin.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Mozote_massacre

Amigo, I am not in this thread to defend the CIA or the IMF (both are, for many Latin Americans, 3-letter 4-letter words).

This does not mean that any anti-CIA anti-IMF demagogue is good for the people.
Reality doesn't work that way.

If you want to live in the Pol-fi world (ok, not Sci-fi), be my guest. But, so far, in many posts in this thread you have reacted to arguments not with counterarguments, but by cut & pasting propaganda bites.

So far, I don't think you have even read my arguments against Chavez (and those are not pro-Bush, pro-CIA or pro-IMF arguments: just the thoughts of a Latin American concerned about the future of democracy in this part of the continent).

Like, have you heard of Chavez's threat to govern until 2021?
Nasty subject, eh?

fbaezer, If I came into this thread and told you that another country had been subverting democracy in Latin America for their own interest for over 20 years you would say I was crazy or you might say what george says that I am having a "paranoid conspiracy addicted fantasy". So I go straight to the posting information and source. So then george can say I'm having a "paranoid conspiracy addicted fantasy".

You say you are concerned with the future of democracy in Latin America? Well then I am presenting you with information of over 20 years of democratic subversion through terror to secure labour and resources of those peoples and their country.

On page 6 and 7 of this thread I ask for the case against Chavez. I get nothing. I ask again. Nimh insults me and presents me with something that with a little research reveals some very interesting information about the Chavez media war and who owns it and who has a stake in it and what happens in Venezuela and that is it. It is very interesting

What is propaganda?

I am not trying to protect or endorse anything except the truth. That is why I don't have a problem with it. Nothing I have said in this thread has been disputed except by insults, dismissals, and denials. Let all the information be challenged so we all know the truth and let those that deny it deny it and let their denial be a reflection of the credibility of their opinions and beleifs. I have seen it all before. I am not a light weight. I was 18 when the civil war was happening in El Salvador and now here we are today. They didn't believe it then either.

I am the one that is not living in a fantasy or in a pol-fi world

So I ask again where is the case against Chavez?

"Like, have you heard of Chavez's threat to govern until 2021?"

Yikes!

I haven't until this moment.


Can you expand?

It's the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" logic all over again...

Human Rights Watch: Venezuela



And:



And:

Amigo asserts that Chavez will bring greater freedom and prosperity to Venezuela. Several of us point out that the historical track record for leaders such as Chavez, who cather the powers that he is accumulating in Venezuela and who advocate ior apply the policies he is imposing on his country, is quite the opposite. The usual result is tyranny, corruption, poverty, and the loss of freedom.

Amigo demands proof of these counter-assertions. The response refers him to the historical facts for such regimes. Amigo responds with an unrelated litany of alleged CIA misdeeds, many of which are imaginary and some hardly misdeeds at all. He then demands proof that his allegations about the CIA are false. We point out that this has nothing to do with the original question. Amigo ignores this obvious fact.

Nimh offers an itemization of Chavez action that are interpreted by Human Rights Watch as inimical to the freedom and liberties of Venezuelans.


It will be very interesting to observe how Amigo will handle that. Will he merely change the subject again, or will he actually deal with this second response in answer his original challenge?

Chavez kicks off electoral campaign, will lead Venezuela "until 2021"

Hugo Chávez: "Estaré hasta el 2021" (Spanish)

Nimh, http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/venezuela/2036.html

The report concludes by recommending that the Organization of American States ought to get involved and apply its Democratic Charter. HRW suggests that the new secretary general of the OAS, Miguel Angel Rodriguez, should initiate an investigation, which requires Chavez government approval, to "find a collective response ...in the face of the constitutional crisis that could seriously affect [Venezuela's] already fragile democracy."

Rangel responded also by saying that "in Venezuela there is an absolute independence of powers and the sovereign actions of the powers is respected." According to Rangel, "Vivanco is speaking as a spokesperson of the Venezuelan opposition, of the Bush administration, and of the worst expression of imperial policies in Latin America."

The 24-page report, titled, "Venezuela: Judicial Independence under Siege," also recommends that the World Bank and Inter-American Development Bank should condition future loans on the government's implementation of the recommendations contained in the HRW report. One of the main recommendations is the suspension of the new Supreme Court law.
----------------------------------
Nimh, Why is Americas humans rights watch report "recommending that the Organization of American States ought to get involved and apply its Democratic Charter." and also recommends that the World Bank and Inter-American Development Bank should condition future loans on the government's implementation of the recommendations contained in the HRW report.

Washington based Human right watch;

World Bank?????
American Development Bank?????
American States apply Democratic charter????

What kind of human rights report is this?

Again I say what is propaganda?

Amigo, I include myself in your plural "guys". And I also take into account what you wrote about enlightening me about the tricks of the CIA.

You don't know sh¡t about me.

Have you ever participated in an illegal socialist organization? I have.
Have you ever worked with industrial workers to organize an independent union, against the government supported one? I have.
Have you mingled with "the salt of the earth", people so poor you wouldn't believe it, and lived among them for political organization reasons? I have.
Have you been chased by the riot police for participating in a pacific left wing demonstration? I have.
Have you edited a clandestine newspaper, made with mimoegraph and stencils and ran from the cops when you were selling it? I have.
Have you called the people for solidarity with your incarcerated union friends from a "free" (i.e. illegal) radio station? I have.
Have you lost chances to be quite rich because your ideals could not be bought? I have.

How big is your report in your country's political police? Mine was 11 pages, and I was able to see it in 2001, when democracy opened them.

Have you ever had family in Cuba that was treated nicely (for a few years) because their relative was "dirigente revolucionario" in his country?

When did you learn about Don Mitrione? By the Internet? By the film "Etat de Siege"?
I saw the film "Etat de Siege" on Yugoslavia, in 1974, because it was banned in Mexico, a couple of days after I was in Tito's house.
But I truly learned first hand, a few years later, from Tupamaro friends in Mexico.

How many of your schoolmates were in the guerrillas?
How many were tortured?
How many are dead or in prison today because of their actions?
I can tell many a story. I won't for now.

But I can say one thing Amigo, you can't fvckin' teach me any lesson on revolution, socialism and the struggle of the peoples in Latin America.

80 % of the people of in Venezuela lived in poverty intill the the natural resources (oil) of that country started to go where it should. To the welfare of it's citizens.

Why was 80% of Venezuela living in poverty in the fifth largest oil exporter in the world?

Why did America finance a Coup in Venezuela of a democratically elected president?

And if they succeeded where would the oil be and where would the poverty level be at?

Don't worry guys. Soon the apparatuses that don't exist will be in place to take the food and education right out from under the 80% of impoverished people that make the country of Venezuela. Then you guys can sing in chorus about the righteousness of the capitalist free market and deny it could have been anything else had any thing to do with it.

Have you ever participated in an illegal socialist organization? I have. (no)
Have you ever worked with industrial workers to organize an independent union, against the government supported one? I have. (yes)

Have you mingled with "the salt of the earth", people so poor you wouldn't believe it, and lived among them for political organization reasons? I have. (no, not for political reasons)

Have you been chased by the riot police for participating in a pacific left wing demonstration? I have. (pretty close the riot police in the states are so well armed with leathal and non-leatal weapons that would be suicide)

Have you edited a clandestine newspaper, made with mimoegraph and stencils and ran from the cops when you were selling it? I have.(yes)

Have you called the people for solidarity with your incarcerated union friends from a "free" (i.e. illegal) radio station? I have. (no)

Have you lost chances to be quite rich because your ideals could not be bought? I have. (yes)

How many of your schoolmates were in the guerrillas?
How many were tortured?
How many are dead or in prison today because of their actions?
I can tell many a story. I won't for now. (no on all four)

No, I don't know you. But I don't really consider you one of the "guys" I refer to. I haven't read enough of your post. I am not a socialist.

Everybody can teach sombody else something if we are listening.

Who knows what the nature of Chavez is but I do however know the nature of my government and there involvement in south America. I am attacked here for telling the truth. Look for yourself. Nobody will answer my questions or challenge my information.

Look at Nimhs "Human rights watch" report from Washington (I belive).

And look what I come up with on it.


World Bank?
American Development Bank?
American States apply Democratic charter?

Human rights my ass.

Without my input on this thread what would it look like? Anybody can make a case against any leader with half the information, selective information or dis-information. I present realities in this thread. I have no patience for willful ignorance and self-deception to support any injustice by ideology, religion, race or nationalism.

With Chavez we will see.

check out the book "confesions of an economic hitman" by John Perkins