georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 01:57 pm
Amigo wrote:
George, To you care to defend your statement against the information provided?


I already have done so.

Perhaps you would consider showing us why the results of Chavez' policies will be any different from those achieved by other authoritarian socialists or corrupt populists (whichever he turns out to be.)
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 01:59 pm
It wasn't directed to you, but at the author and his ilk.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 03:48 pm
Reading this (below) I didnt know whether to laugh out loud or to Shocked

It does seem, to me, like the "People's Republic of Camden" is more interested in reliving those heady days of solidarity with Nicaragua than the actual conditions in Venezuela.

In a way I'm a bit envious, really, of their ability to indulge themselves like that - without, apparently, any reflective self-consciousness about whatever happened to their causes from back then (Castro? Ortega?). I wouldnt be able to.

Quote:
Britain's left-wing 'aristocracy' greet their hero Chavez

The Independent
Published: 15 May 2006

He has been described as a fearless champion of the oppressed poor against the corrupt rich and their American sponsors. But also as a dangerous demagogue subsidising totalitarian regimes with his country's oil wells. Yesterday in London, however, there was no doubt about what the hundreds who had thronged to see Hugo Chavez thought of him.

Around a thousand people packed into Camden Town Hall to witness a mixture of a Latin American populist rally, an evangelical meeting and a football match. The chanting, foot-stomping crowd thunderously proclaimed: "Ooh ah, Chavez no se va," as the President of Venezuela spoke.

The cry ("Chavez will not go") which originates from the streets of Caracas, and the barrios of those fiercely loyal to Chavez, came when he described attempts to overthrow him by, he claims, the US through their Venezuelan proxies.

And yesterday in the People's Republic of Camden the villains remained very much President George W Bush, his acolyte Tony Blair, big business and the forces of reaction.

Old Labour was present recalling its radical past with MP Jeremy Corbyn and Tariq Ali. Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, who had invited President Chavez, was in the chair.

Banners of trade unions, human rights groups and the CND hung next to each other on the walls. There were also activists like Bianca Jagger and civil rights lawyer Gareth Peirce.

Mr Corbyn, never knowingly one to agree with Tony Blair and his cabinet, said New Labour had a lot to learn from Venezuela. Nicaraguan born Ms Jagger, said President Chavez was leading the fight against imperialism among a new generation of South American leaders.

Chavez was not meeting Mr Blair, whom he has called 'the main ally of Hitler' because of his friendship with Mr Bush, or his cabinet. He has no protocol reasons to do so as this is a private visit. He will, however, see around 80 labour MPs and a handful of Lib Dems today. William Hague, as shadow foreign secretary, is also said to be seeking an audience with El Presidente.

In a previous visit to London in April 1998, Senor Chavez has declared himself a convert to Mr Blair's Third Way. He was given tea with the Queen and dinner with John Prescott. Since then Mr Blair's popularity has waned, at least domestically, while President Chavez made this month's Time magazine's list of the worlds 100 most influential people.

The Venezuelan president has been building a Latin American open "axis of good" against "American hegemony". He has replaced the Soviet Union as the supplier of cut-price oil to Cuba, helped pay off Argentina's US2.3 billion debt to the IMF, and provided free medical aid to citizens of neighbouring countries.

This is part of a European tour by the Venezuelan leader. He has met the Pope in the Vatican and arrived in London after a rally in Vienna. Senor Chavez made his entry into the hall in North London yesterday one hour and 24 minutes late, apologising for his Venezuelan timing. A stocky figure in a charcoal grey suit, white shirt and red tie, the President was greeted with tumultuous ovation.

Mr Livingstone described the President as 'a beacon of democracy and social progress in Latin America' who has won his electoral popularity not least for introducing effective help and education services.

For the next couple of hours President Chavez, speaking without notes, sometimes rambling, presented his vision of the world ­ the need for socialism, peace and justice, and the threat to these precious values from the 'genocidal and perverted' Bush administration.

He quoted Rosa Luxembourg and Pythagoras, Karl Marx and George Bernard Shaw. The biggest cheer came when he recalled the words of the former Mexican president: "Poor Mexico. So far from God, so close to the United States.''

Senor Chavez warned that Washington was even now planning an attack on Iran. This, he said, would "launch a conflagration". He continued: " We do not know who in the region would first reach for the nuclear bomb."

The President bitterly attacked America's foreign policy. "At this moment they are probably bombing Baghdad. How many children will die before the day ends? Why do they have to die?''

The President maintained that if the British government have the courage to stand up to the US it too will be targeted. "That is the fatal obsession of the US, the great lover becomes the great enemy.''

President Chavez claimed that there were plots 'well developed' in Washington to assassinate him. "I know there are plans to kill me, but I really don't care. It will not stop me.

"We may not live to see our dream of socialism come true. But the younger people will see this wonderful, luminous world, believe me."


See also: Revolution in the Camden air as Chávez - with amigo Ken - gets a hero's welcome
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 07:40 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Amigo wrote:
George, To you care to defend your statement against the information provided?


I already have done so.

Perhaps you would consider showing us why the results of Chavez' policies will be any different from those achieved by other authoritarian socialists or corrupt populists (whichever he turns out to be.)
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 08:02 pm
OK Amigo, let's accept -for the argument's sake, at least- that the CIA is evil and was even more evil during the Cold War.

Does this make Chavez a saint or something?

Could we move a bit beyond the Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader level?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 08:56 pm
If this entirely irrelevant screed is taken at face value the CIA was responsible for nearly every significant event over the past 40 yrears in the hemisphere from Trujillo's assasination to the coup that deposed President Goulart of Brazil thirty years ago. A great deal of this stuff is nonsense taken from fantasy conspiracy sites that serve a certain paranoid, conspiracy-addicted mindset -- one that our friend Amigo appears to embrace.

I don't agree that the CIA is or was evil, unless your standard is that of Mother Theresa. If instead your standard is the practices of real governments in the hemisphere, from Canada to Mexico, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia, Argentina, and Chile -- not to mention lesser lights suvh as Haiti, The Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Paraguay, and others, then the CIA most assuredly is not evil at all. Indeed it is and has been a force for freedom and justice.

Evidently Amigo fancies that he has convincingly demonstrated the merit of Chavez' programs and rule in poor, unfortunate Venezuela. I think not.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 09:14 pm
Chavez is the Democratically elected President of Venezuela. Chavez is what the people of Venezuela want. Democracy! is that or is that not what we want?

--------------------

Summary, CIA Electoral Interventions, and Nicaragua as a Model for Venezuela

Summary

It is no secret that the government of the United States is carrying out a program of operations in favor of the Venezuelan political opposition to remove President Hugo Chávez Frías and the coalition of parties that supports him from power. The budget for this program, initiated by the administration of Bill Clinton and intensified under George W. Bush, has risen from some $2 million in 2001 to $9 million in 2005, and it disguises itself as activities to "promote democracy," "resolve conflicts," and "strengthen civic life." It consists of providing money, training, counsel and direction to an extensive network of political parties, NGO's, mass media, unions, and businessmen, all determined to end the bolivarian revolutionary process. The program has clear short, medium, and long-term goals, and adapts easily to changes in the fluid Venezuelan political process.

Cont:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/posting.php?mode=reply&t=45766

-------------

$11 Million in American money to sabotage a Democracy?
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 09:33 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
If this entirely irrelevant screed is taken at face value the CIA was responsible for nearly every significant event over the past 40 yrears in the hemisphere from Trujillo's assasination to the coup that deposed President Goulart of Brazil thirty years ago. A great deal of this stuff is nonsense taken from fantasy conspiracy sites that serve a certain paranoid, conspiracy-addicted mindset -- one that our friend Amigo appears to embrace.

I don't agree that the CIA is or was evil, unless your standard is that of Mother Theresa. If instead your standard is the practices of real governments in the hemisphere, from Canada to Mexico, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia, Argentina, and Chile -- not to mention lesser lights suvh as Haiti, The Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Paraguay, and others, then the CIA most assuredly is not evil at all. Indeed it is and has been a force for freedom and justice.

Evidently Amigo fancies that he has convincingly demonstrated the merit of Chavez' programs and rule in poor, unfortunate Venezuela. I think not.
Pick out the most ridiculous "paranoid conspiracy addicted fantasy" and we will see. Just like when we discussed the policies of the IMF.

This is the second time I have challenged you to dispute anything on that list. Do you have anything to prove the policies practised in that list are a lie.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 09:52 pm
fbaezer wrote:
OK Amigo, let's accept -for the argument's sake, at least- that the CIA is evil and was even more evil during the Cold War.

Does this make Chavez a saint or something?

Could we move a bit beyond the Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader level?
http://www.parascope.com/articles/0197/el_moz02.jpg
The Atlacatl Battalion
was the first Salvadoran
unit trained by U.S. Army
Special Forces advisors.

"The Yankees' Battalion"

During the early 1980s, the entire Salvadoran security apparatus, including the National Guard, the Treasury Police, the Army and the Air Force, received financial backing and expert instruction from the United States. But the support bestowed on the Atlacatl Battalion was in many ways unique.

Early in 1981, advisers from the U.S. Army Special Forces were sent to hone the counterinsurgency skills of the Salvadorans. The training program was a key element of the Reagan administration's drive to "professionalize" the anti-guerrilla operations of El Salvador's military, to ensure it's ability to stave off insurrection. The first unit trained was Atlacatl, which was to become what the U.S. instructors called an "immediate reaction infantry battalion" -- a search-and-destroy force deployed to "clean up" contested areas.

The commander of Atlacatl, Lieutenant Colonel Domingo Monterrosa, was an avid student of counterinsurgency methods and a rabid warrior. As a young soldier, Monterrosa had trained at the U.S. Army's School of the Americas, then located in Panama. If he acquired any understanding of the rights of noncombatants from his U.S. advisers, Monterrosa did not show it. Six months after his battalion's total war on El Mozote, Monterrosa told Washington Post reporter Christopher Dickey that in areas where the FMLN was popular, civilian casualties were to be expected:

"It is natural that in these subversive redoubts the armed men are not there alone. That is to say, they have their 'masses' -- people, women, old people, or children, including the children who are [guerrilla] messengers, or the wives, and they are all mixed up with the subversives themselves, with the armed ones. So in the clashes ... it's natural that there were a series of people killed, some without weapons, including some women, and I understand some children."

Mark Danner quotes one of Atlacatl's Special Forces trainers who voiced similar sentiments in regard to the indiscriminate killings that occurred during Operation Rescue:

"El Mozote was in a place, in a zone, that was one hundred percent controlled by the guerrillas. You try to dry those areas up. You know you're not going to be able to work with the civilian population up there, you're never going to get a permanent base there. So you just decide to kill everybody. That'll scare everybody else out of the zone. It's done out of frustration more than anything else."

The fact that El Salvador's security forces practiced total war against civilians, be they political opponents or suspect peasants, was also understood by at least some U.S. officials. According to Todd Greentree, a junior official at the U.S. embassy in San Salvador, "the hard-core guys" in the Army believed they were fighting "a virus" of Marxism. "They'd always say 'a cancer' -- you know, 'Communism is a cancer.' And so if you're a guerrilla they don't just kill you, they kill your cousin, you know, everybody in the family, to make sure the cancer is cut out."

The dirty war waged by the American-backed battalion would soon come under scrutiny in the United States, where reports of atrocities in El Salvador posed a threat to continued congressional support of the war effort. Three weeks after the massacre, New York Times reporter Ray Bonner visited El Mozote to confirm reports by refugees and Radio Veneceremos that something catastrophic had happened there. He described what he saw in his 1984 book, Weakness and Deceit: U.S. Policy and El Salvador:

"The carnage was everywhere. I saw skulls, rib cages, femurs, tibias protruding from the rubble of cracked roofing tiles, charred beams, children's toys, crushed sewing machines, and kitchen utensils. Fourteen bodies lay in a heap at the edge of a cornfield, under the swooping green leaves of banana trees."

Bonner reported his observations in a Times story on January 27, 1982. "From interviews with people who live in this small mountain village and surrounding hamlets, it is clear that a massacre of major proportions occurred here last month," the front-page article began. Bonner described the traces of butchery that he had witnessed in the ruins of El Mozote, and noted peasant statements that the Atlacatl Battalion was responsible for the killing. Residents of the region had supplied him with a list of 733 peasants killed by the Army in and around El Mozote.

On the same day the Washington Post published a similar report by Alma Guillermoprieto, also on page one. Her article added detail to the story and contained survivor Rufina Amaya's somber account of the systematic extermination of the people of El Mozote: "The soldiers had no fury. They just observed the lieutenant's orders. They were cold. It wasn't a battle."

In Washington, the Reagan administration scrambled to discredit press accounts of the massacre and preserve the U.S. military aid package. In Morazan, the Salvadorans who survived the latest bloodbath understood who was funding the troops that terrorized them. In Weakness and Deceit, Bonner quotes a peasant song memorializing the massacre:

http://www.parascope.com/articles/0197/el_mozin.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Mozote_massacre
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 10:06 pm
Amigo, I am not in this thread to defend the CIA or the IMF (both are, for many Latin Americans, 3-letter 4-letter words).

This does not mean that any anti-CIA anti-IMF demagogue is good for the people.
Reality doesn't work that way.

If you want to live in the Pol-fi world (ok, not Sci-fi), be my guest. But, so far, in many posts in this thread you have reacted to arguments not with counterarguments, but by cut & pasting propaganda bites.

So far, I don't think you have even read my arguments against Chavez (and those are not pro-Bush, pro-CIA or pro-IMF arguments: just the thoughts of a Latin American concerned about the future of democracy in this part of the continent).

Like, have you heard of Chavez's threat to govern until 2021?
Nasty subject, eh?
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 May, 2006 02:08 am
fbaezer wrote:
Amigo, I am not in this thread to defend the CIA or the IMF (both are, for many Latin Americans, 3-letter 4-letter words).

This does not mean that any anti-CIA anti-IMF demagogue is good for the people.
Reality doesn't work that way.

If you want to live in the Pol-fi world (ok, not Sci-fi), be my guest. But, so far, in many posts in this thread you have reacted to arguments not with counterarguments, but by cut & pasting propaganda bites.

So far, I don't think you have even read my arguments against Chavez (and those are not pro-Bush, pro-CIA or pro-IMF arguments: just the thoughts of a Latin American concerned about the future of democracy in this part of the continent).

Like, have you heard of Chavez's threat to govern until 2021?
Nasty subject, eh?
fbaezer, If I came into this thread and told you that another country had been subverting democracy in Latin America for their own interest for over 20 years you would say I was crazy or you might say what george says that I am having a "paranoid conspiracy addicted fantasy". So I go straight to the posting information and source. So then george can say I'm having a "paranoid conspiracy addicted fantasy".

You say you are concerned with the future of democracy in Latin America? Well then I am presenting you with information of over 20 years of democratic subversion through terror to secure labour and resources of those peoples and their country.

On page 6 and 7 of this thread I ask for the case against Chavez. I get nothing. I ask again. Nimh insults me and presents me with something that with a little research reveals some very interesting information about the Chavez media war and who owns it and who has a stake in it and what happens in Venezuela and that is it. It is very interesting

What is propaganda?

I am not trying to protect or endorse anything except the truth. That is why I don't have a problem with it. Nothing I have said in this thread has been disputed except by insults, dismissals, and denials. Let all the information be challenged so we all know the truth and let those that deny it deny it and let their denial be a reflection of the credibility of their opinions and beleifs. I have seen it all before. I am not a light weight. I was 18 when the civil war was happening in El Salvador and now here we are today. They didn't believe it then either.

I am the one that is not living in a fantasy or in a pol-fi world

So I ask again where is the case against Chavez?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 May, 2006 03:10 am
"Like, have you heard of Chavez's threat to govern until 2021?"

Yikes!

I haven't until this moment.


Can you expand?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 May, 2006 06:01 am
fbaezer wrote:
OK Amigo, let's accept -for the argument's sake, at least- that the CIA is evil and was even more evil during the Cold War.

Does this make Chavez a saint or something?

It's the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" logic all over again...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 May, 2006 06:15 am
Amigo wrote:
So I ask again where is the case against Chavez?


Human Rights Watch: Venezuela

Quote:
Venezuela: Court Orders Trial of Civil Society Leaders

In ordering the trial of four civil society leaders on dubious charges of treason, a Venezuelan court has assented to government persecution of political opponents, Human Rights Watch said today.

July 8, 2005

Venezuela: Rights Lawyer Faces Judicial Persecution
Criminal Investigation Launched to Intimidate Critic of Government's Rights Record

The Venezuelan government should immediately halt criminal proceedings opened against one of Latin America's most prominent human rights lawyers, Human Rights Watch said today.

April 5, 2005

Letter to President Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías

In a letter sent to President Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías, HRW expressed deep concern about credible reports documenting that National Guard and police officers beat and tortured people who were detained during the recent protests in Caracas and other Venezuelan cities.

April 12, 2004

Venezuela: Investigate Charges of Abuses Against Protestors

The Venezuelan government should conduct a thorough investigation into allegations that state security forces have beaten and abused detained protestors this week, Human Rights Watch said today. The investigation should also examine the circumstances of killings that occurred during confrontations between protesters and police.

March 5, 2004


And:

Quote:
Venezuela: Chávez Allies Pack Supreme Court

The Venezuelan Congress dealt a severe blow to judicial independence by packing the country's Supreme Court with 12 new justices, Human Rights Watch said today. A majority of the ruling coalition, dominated by President Hugo Chávez's party, named the justices late yesterday, filling seats created by a law passed in May that expanded the court's size by more than half.

December 14, 2004

Testimony of José Miguel Vivanco
Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on Western Hemisphere, Peace Corps and Narcotics Affairs

Over the past year, President Chávez and his allies have taken steps to control Venezuela's judicial branch. These steps undercut the separation of powers and the independence of judges. They violate basic principles of Venezuela's constitution and international human rights law. And they represent the most serious threat to Venezuela's fragile democracy since the 2002 coup.

July 7, 2004

Court-Packing Law Threatens Venezuelan Democracy

When Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez faced a coup d'etat in April 2002, the international community roundly condemned the assault on Venezuela's constitutional order. Now, as he faces a recall referendum in August 2004, Chavez's own government threatens to undermine this country's fragile democracy through a political takeover of its highest court.

June 22, 2004

Rigging the Rule of Law: Judicial Independence Under Siege in Venezuela

The Venezuelan government is undermining the independence of the country's judiciary ahead of a presidential recall referendum that may ultimately be decided in the courts. President Chávez's governing coalition has begun implementing a new court-packing law that will strip the Supreme Court of its autonomy. This 24-page report examines how the new law will make judges more vulnerable to political persecution and help ensure that legal controversies surrounding the recall referendum are resolved in Chávez's favor.

June 17, 2004


And:

Quote:
Venezuela: Curbs on Free Expression Tightened

Amendments to Venezuela's Criminal Code that entered into force last week may stifle press criticism of government authorities and restrict the public's ability to monitor government actions, Human Rights Watch said today.

March 24, 2005

Venezuela: Media Law Undercuts Freedom of Expression

A draft law to increase state control of television and radio broadcasting in Venezuela threatens to undermine the media's freedom of expression, Human Rights Watch said today. Venezuela's National Assembly, which has been voting article by article on the law, known as the Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television, is expected to approve it today.

November 24, 2004
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 May, 2006 03:22 pm
Amigo asserts that Chavez will bring greater freedom and prosperity to Venezuela. Several of us point out that the historical track record for leaders such as Chavez, who cather the powers that he is accumulating in Venezuela and who advocate ior apply the policies he is imposing on his country, is quite the opposite. The usual result is tyranny, corruption, poverty, and the loss of freedom.

Amigo demands proof of these counter-assertions. The response refers him to the historical facts for such regimes. Amigo responds with an unrelated litany of alleged CIA misdeeds, many of which are imaginary and some hardly misdeeds at all. He then demands proof that his allegations about the CIA are false. We point out that this has nothing to do with the original question. Amigo ignores this obvious fact.

Nimh offers an itemization of Chavez action that are interpreted by Human Rights Watch as inimical to the freedom and liberties of Venezuelans.


It will be very interesting to observe how Amigo will handle that. Will he merely change the subject again, or will he actually deal with this second response in answer his original challenge?
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 May, 2006 04:00 pm
dlowan wrote:
"Like, have you heard of Chavez's threat to govern until 2021?"

Yikes!

I haven't until this moment.


Can you expand?
Chavez kicks off electoral campaign, will lead Venezuela "until 2021"

Hugo Chávez: "Estaré hasta el 2021" (Spanish)
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 May, 2006 04:38 pm
Nimh, http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/venezuela/2036.html

The report concludes by recommending that the Organization of American States ought to get involved and apply its Democratic Charter. HRW suggests that the new secretary general of the OAS, Miguel Angel Rodriguez, should initiate an investigation, which requires Chavez government approval, to "find a collective response ...in the face of the constitutional crisis that could seriously affect [Venezuela's] already fragile democracy."

Rangel responded also by saying that "in Venezuela there is an absolute independence of powers and the sovereign actions of the powers is respected." According to Rangel, "Vivanco is speaking as a spokesperson of the Venezuelan opposition, of the Bush administration, and of the worst expression of imperial policies in Latin America."

The 24-page report, titled, "Venezuela: Judicial Independence under Siege," also recommends that the World Bank and Inter-American Development Bank should condition future loans on the government's implementation of the recommendations contained in the HRW report. One of the main recommendations is the suspension of the new Supreme Court law.
----------------------------------
Nimh, Why is Americas humans rights watch report "recommending that the Organization of American States ought to get involved and apply its Democratic Charter." and also recommends that the World Bank and Inter-American Development Bank should condition future loans on the government's implementation of the recommendations contained in the HRW report.

Washington based Human right watch;

World Bank?????
American Development Bank?????
American States apply Democratic charter????

What kind of human rights report is this? Laughing

Again I say what is propaganda?
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 May, 2006 05:31 pm
Amigo, I include myself in your plural "guys". And I also take into account what you wrote about enlightening me about the tricks of the CIA.

You don't know sh¡t about me.

Have you ever participated in an illegal socialist organization? I have.
Have you ever worked with industrial workers to organize an independent union, against the government supported one? I have.
Have you mingled with "the salt of the earth", people so poor you wouldn't believe it, and lived among them for political organization reasons? I have.
Have you been chased by the riot police for participating in a pacific left wing demonstration? I have.
Have you edited a clandestine newspaper, made with mimoegraph and stencils and ran from the cops when you were selling it? I have.
Have you called the people for solidarity with your incarcerated union friends from a "free" (i.e. illegal) radio station? I have.
Have you lost chances to be quite rich because your ideals could not be bought? I have.

How big is your report in your country's political police? Mine was 11 pages, and I was able to see it in 2001, when democracy opened them.

Have you ever had family in Cuba that was treated nicely (for a few years) because their relative was "dirigente revolucionario" in his country?

When did you learn about Don Mitrione? By the Internet? By the film "Etat de Siege"?
I saw the film "Etat de Siege" on Yugoslavia, in 1974, because it was banned in Mexico, a couple of days after I was in Tito's house.
But I truly learned first hand, a few years later, from Tupamaro friends in Mexico.

How many of your schoolmates were in the guerrillas?
How many were tortured?
How many are dead or in prison today because of their actions?
I can tell many a story. I won't for now.

But I can say one thing Amigo, you can't fvckin' teach me any lesson on revolution, socialism and the struggle of the peoples in Latin America.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 May, 2006 05:33 pm
80 % of the people of in Venezuela lived in poverty intill the the natural resources (oil) of that country started to go where it should. To the welfare of it's citizens.

Why was 80% of Venezuela living in poverty in the fifth largest oil exporter in the world?

Why did America finance a Coup in Venezuela of a democratically elected president?

And if they succeeded where would the oil be and where would the poverty level be at?

Don't worry guys. Soon the apparatuses that don't exist will be in place to take the food and education right out from under the 80% of impoverished people that make the country of Venezuela. Then you guys can sing in chorus about the righteousness of the capitalist free market and deny it could have been anything else had any thing to do with it.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 May, 2006 06:15 pm
Have you ever participated in an illegal socialist organization? I have. (no)
Have you ever worked with industrial workers to organize an independent union, against the government supported one? I have. (yes)

Have you mingled with "the salt of the earth", people so poor you wouldn't believe it, and lived among them for political organization reasons? I have. (no, not for political reasons)

Have you been chased by the riot police for participating in a pacific left wing demonstration? I have. (pretty close the riot police in the states are so well armed with leathal and non-leatal weapons that would be suicide)

Have you edited a clandestine newspaper, made with mimoegraph and stencils and ran from the cops when you were selling it? I have.(yes)

Have you called the people for solidarity with your incarcerated union friends from a "free" (i.e. illegal) radio station? I have. (no)

Have you lost chances to be quite rich because your ideals could not be bought? I have. (yes)

How many of your schoolmates were in the guerrillas?
How many were tortured?
How many are dead or in prison today because of their actions?
I can tell many a story. I won't for now. (no on all four)

No, I don't know you. But I don't really consider you one of the "guys" I refer to. I haven't read enough of your post. I am not a socialist.

Everybody can teach sombody else something if we are listening.

Who knows what the nature of Chavez is but I do however know the nature of my government and there involvement in south America. I am attacked here for telling the truth. Look for yourself. Nobody will answer my questions or challenge my information.

Look at Nimhs "Human rights watch" report from Washington (I belive).

And look what I come up with on it.


World Bank?
American Development Bank?
American States apply Democratic charter?

Human rights my ass.

Without my input on this thread what would it look like? Anybody can make a case against any leader with half the information, selective information or dis-information. I present realities in this thread. I have no patience for willful ignorance and self-deception to support any injustice by ideology, religion, race or nationalism.

With Chavez we will see.

check out the book "confesions of an economic hitman" by John Perkins
0 Replies
 
 

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