Calling All Democrats

But as he said this

Brandon9000 wrote:

No, I did not ever claim that the invasion of Iraq was motivated by a desire to fight terrorism.

he's at least honest. And I think the government wouldn't buy this line.

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Brandon, let's put together some of your statements.

1. If someone wants to get a WMD into america they can.
2. If someone wants to acquire biological weapons they can.
3. America's intelligence services are incapable of determining what is occuring within the arabic world.

and combine them with the relatively obvious,

4. People in the Arabic world hate America a lot and are continuing to dislike it more and more.

If you're correct then you'll be dead soon, so before that occurs let me just say it was a pleasure meeting you.

Your view of the world appears immensely paranoid. I understand, I'm a totally cynical misanthrope myself but if things were really as grim as you envision then charging into some petty war in Iraq would not be helping matters.

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theantibuddha wrote:

Brandon, let's put together some of your statements.

1. If someone wants to get a WMD into america they can.
2. If someone wants to acquire biological weapons they can.
3. America's intelligence services are incapable of determining what is occuring within the arabic world.

and combine them with the relatively obvious,

4. People in the Arabic world hate America a lot and are continuing to dislike it more and more.

If you're correct then you'll be dead soon, so before that occurs let me just say it was a pleasure meeting you.

Your view of the world appears immensely paranoid. I understand, I'm a totally cynical misanthrope myself but if things were really as grim as you envision then charging into some petty war in Iraq would not be helping matters.

LOL

Have I welcomed you to the forum, anti-b?

I'll look forward to your posts after reading this one.

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theantibuddha wrote:

Brandon, let's put together some of your statements.

1. If someone wants to get a WMD into america they can.
2. If someone wants to acquire biological weapons they can.
3. America's intelligence services are incapable of determining what is occuring within the arabic world.

and combine them with the relatively obvious,

4. People in the Arabic world hate America a lot and are continuing to dislike it more and more.

If you're correct then you'll be dead soon, so before that occurs let me just say it was a pleasure meeting you.

Your view of the world appears immensely paranoid. I understand, I'm a totally cynical misanthrope myself but if things were really as grim as you envision then charging into some petty war in Iraq would not be helping matters.

You should save your sympathy for those that believe fascism is becoming prevalent in American society. It is they that need your assistance in becoming less paranoid.

At least Brandon knows who the real enemy is.

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theantibuddha wrote:

Brandon, let's put together some of your statements.

1. If someone wants to get a WMD into america they can.
2. If someone wants to acquire biological weapons they can.
3. America's intelligence services are incapable of determining what is occuring within the arabic world.

and combine them with the relatively obvious,

4. People in the Arabic world hate America a lot and are continuing to dislike it more and more.

If you're correct then you'll be dead soon, so before that occurs let me just say it was a pleasure meeting you.

Your view of the world appears immensely paranoid. I understand, I'm a totally cynical misanthrope myself but if things were really as grim as you envision then charging into some petty war in Iraq would not be helping matters.

Exactly! Now you finally get the point. Your summary of my beliefs is substantially correct, except that it is reality, not paranoia. I will go over your points one by one, and please jump in any place you disagree.

1. "If someone wants to get a WMD into america they can."
Yes. Do you doubt this?
2. "If someone wants to acquire biological weapons they can."
Yes, certainly a country can, and possibly a terrorist organization. What is to stop a determined country seeking bioweapons?
3. "America's intelligence services are incapable of determining what is occuring within the arabic world."
No, I don't believe this, only that it is difficult and we're not there yet.
4. "People in the Arabic world hate America a lot and are continuing to dislike it more and more."
Many people there hate us. I am not sure what the trend is, despite all the propaganda from the left. I agree that many of them hate and/or fear our culture, though.

Quote:

If you're correct then you'll be dead soon, so before that occurs let me just say it was a pleasure meeting you.

And now you have finally derived my same conclusion and know why I wanted us to invade Iraq and be sure about Hussein's WMD. I feel that a WMD attack sometime in the next few years is a very, very real possibility.

Remember, it's only paranoia if it's bad logic.

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old europe wrote:

Brandon,

you are right. I think it's definitely possible to either smuggle components for a weapon into the US (or any western country), or obtain them and assemble one within the States - like McVeigh and very probably the anthrax attacks have proven. (I don't want to make a point here. Because you're probably going to argue "But the anthrax came from Iraq" or something. Honestly, I don't care were it came from.)

So, given the 98% chance I would have as a Dr. Evil to smuggle a nuke into the States (and this doesn't seem to change within a 'reasonable' amount of time) - wouldn't it be smarter if the States just wouldn't PISS THE REST OF THE WORLD OFF?

Well, it would depend what it would require for us to accomplish that. If we had to never use our military, help them destroy Israel, accept Islam unquestioningly, become as poor as they are so they won't feel jealous, etc., it is not a price I am willing to pay,

old europe wrote:

Brandon - why do you think anybody would call the US the 'big Satan'? What possible reasons could he have for that? And why do so many people around the globe hate the US?

I'm not talking about some dictator madmen. Just take a week off, travel to El Salvador (or Nicaragua or Panama or Chile or Bolivia or Columbia, you have it) and talk to people in the streets.

First of all, you have given no statistics as to who hates us and doesn't and I won't accept your musings as evidence. However, as to why those who hate us do, here are some thoughts:

1. In his manifesto, published soon after 9/11, Osama bin Laden tells the West that one of his principle objections to us is that we refuse to convert unquestioningly to Islam. Also, I heard the results of a questionnaire given to people in the Middle East about how they regard the US. Of the people who said that they don't like us, the most frequent reason cited was our sexual promiscuity.
2. I am sure that a big, big part of the dislike for us is motivated by jealousy.
3. The Middle Easterners have information sources like "Al Jazeera" lying to them all the time.
4. They see our culture supplanting theirs and are frightened.
5. Many of those who hate us are Muslims who believe that Islam should be mandatory.
6. Perhaps some clue could be taken from al-Zarqawi who recently published an opinion that democracy was immoral.
7. Our support of Israel against fanatics who blow up noncombatants in public places with nail bombs.

old europe wrote:

Imagine if the US had instead spent the very same 150,000,000,000 US$ on, uhhh... fighting hunger in the world. Announce a 'war on hunger' (as this seems to be term a lot of Americans obviously can identify with). 'Kill' hunger in the world within 4 years. Nobody will starve to death.

Do you think the States would become a target because they were LOVED too much? I don't think so.

Alright, let me imagine it. First of all we have already given a lot of aid to the world and it didn't produce much love, but lets say that we give this aid instead of invading Iraq and some people start to love us. Then, two years later, Saddam Hussein launches a new invasion/annexation of Iraq, but tells the world that he now has nukes and bioweapons that will be used if anyone tries to stop him. Next he annexes Saudi Arabia, etc.

old europe wrote:

Brandon, you are a cold warrior. You are talking about preemptive strikes and wars and invasions, and about retaliation.

On the contrary. There is a fundamental and important difference between the Cold War and the present. During the cold War WMD were pretty much only obtainable by a few large, powerful countries which, if not exactly nice, were at least sane and followed generally risk averse policies. In this situation, Mutual Assured Destruction was still workable.

old europe wrote:

As if this was about fighting other countries. It is not. Terror networks don't have a territory to loose, they don't fight a war, you can't invade them, and once they have been successful you can't retaliate, because they are already dead...

It is about both other countries (certain ones) obtaining WMD and terrorists obtaining WMD. Both are real dangers. You are correct that once a terrorst strike is successful, you can't retaliate because they are dead. All the more reason to kill them before they strike.

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Actually I was trying to find out about the values you believe in. theantibuddha has obviously made a point in summing up what you meant. I'm not sure whether I have any more questions or not.

You're basically promoting social Darwinism - the survival of the fittest. You're saying: They want to kill us, so we should kill them first.

I personally don't think that a society cannot survive on those terms, neither within its borders nor on a global level.

I am tempted to state that we had this experiment in Europe some decades ago. Actually both the first and the second World War were fought because the military elites of those times were firm believers of the 'preemptive strike' theory.

The end of the WWII was the birth of the EU as we know it today. Preemptiveness has left our cities in ruins, millions of people dead, millions of people homeless.

I think that the 'old European' countries (silly term, but whatever... we could call them the 'Founding Fathers of the Union': Belgium, West Germany, Luxembourg, France, Italy and the Netherlands) were quite willing to give up some of their previously much-sought independence and gain in return stability and peace.

Really, this is what I think the EU is about, and what the UN are about.

I think there's no benefit in alienating the whole world and making enemies, just because you feel threatened by something.

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old europe wrote:

I think there's no benefit in alienating the whole world and making enemies, just because you feel threatened by something.

Oh, I kind of see a benefit. If you can try to keep WMD out of the hands of people of the moral fiber of a Hitler, or a Hussein, or an Idi Amin Dada, or a Pol Pot, or an al-Zarqawi, then you may not wake up one morning to find a mushroom cloud rising over what used to be New York, or Munich, or London, or a deadly plague spreading through your country.

The weapons are real. The access to less wealthy and sophisticated entities is growing as technology advances. People are seeking the weapons. We can't keep people from smuggling them into our cities. This is different from the 1930s. Now there are weapons of such power that ONE USE OF ONE of them could kill up to maybe a million people. That's a lot more of a worry than gunpowder or dynamite.

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old europe wrote:

You're basically promoting social Darwinism - the survival of the fittest. You're saying: They want to kill us, so we should kill them first.

Actually, this is not generally what I'm saying. Let's break the prospective owners of WMD into two categories, nations and terrorists.

1. Dictators whose histories make them appear very high risk for actual use of WMD should they acquire them, and who are apparently trying to acquire them.
I want to disarm them peacefully if possible but force if necessary.

2. Terrorists who are actively attacking us and trying to kill us, especially if they show interest in acquiring WMD.
Yes, I do want to kill them before they kill us. I suppose if it were easy to capture a terrorist without killing him, we could try him in court, but I have no aversion to just attacking terrorist camps with lethal force.

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McGentrix wrote:

You should save your sympathy for those that believe fascism is becoming prevalent in American society. It is they that need your assistance in becoming less paranoid.

Wow, people need my assistance. I feel a surge of validation as though I have a purpose in life. No wait... they'd just ignore me like everyone else I try to talk sense into.

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5. Many of those who hate us are Muslims who believe that Islam should be mandatory.

Why can't the muslims and christians just kill each other off already and improve the world a little.

Quote:

7. Our support of Israel against fanatics who blow up noncombatants in public places with nail bombs.

Alternatively our nonsupport of Palestine against fanatics who blow up noncombatants in public places with highly advanced modern weaponry... Now I'm not saying Palestine is the good guys here, but frankly both sides are bastards who should have their "holy lands" taken from them and given to the Buddhists for safe keeping. They can still visit on pilgrimages.

Quote:

Of the people who said that they don't like us, the most frequent reason cited was our sexual promiscuity.

These are clearly the people the who get American TV over there.

Quote:

Many people there hate us. I am not sure what the trend is, despite all the propaganda from the left. I agree that many of them hate and/or fear our culture, though.

Yes, the left are the only ones who use propoganda....

Let me give you a little hint about human psychology. If someone invades your country, drops bombs everywhere and harms many non-civilian targets, possibly including your friends, family, lover whatever. Then chances are you will like them less, regardless of their claimed reasons for it.

You're not going to find an arabic guy saying "Well yes, my entire family died during shock and awe. My best friend is being tortured within the American prisons and I've got some nasty shrapnel in my left ankle but at least America is safe from WMDs. Jolly good show old chaps."

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theantibuddha wrote:

...You're not going to find an arabic guy saying "Well yes, my entire family died during shock and awe. My best friend is being tortured within the American prisons and I've got some nasty shrapnel in my left ankle but at least America is safe from WMDs. Jolly good show old chaps."

I'm sure you're not, but it's off topic. The point is that invasion was the sensible thing for us to do if we want to keep breathing, which is more than sufficient justification.

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