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America Fascist ??

 
 
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 02:41 pm
Since, according to Gungasnake, Dems have just had their "Week from Hell" I wanted to propose we all, conservatives included, are actually looking at a lot longer than 7 days in Hell as America becomes more and more fascist.

http://www.ericblumrich.com/14.html

Bush to Seek $419.3 Billion for Defense



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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,507 • Replies: 52
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 02:48 pm
BM
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 04:14 pm
From Encyclopedia.com:

(Fash-Izem) , totalitarian philosophy of government that glorifies the state and nation and assigns to the state control over every aspect of national life. The name was first used by the party started by Benito Mussolini , who ruled Italy from 1922 until the Italian defeat in World War II. However, it has also been applied to similar ideologies in other countries, e.g., to National Socialism in Germany and to the regime of Francisco Franco in Spain. The term is derived from the Latin fasces.

Characteristics:

Fascism, especially in its early stages, is obliged to be antitheoretical and frankly opportunistic in order to appeal to many diverse groups. Nevertheless, a few key concepts are basic to it. First and most important is the glorification of the state and the total subordination of the individual to it. The state is defined as an organic whole into which individuals must be absorbed for their own and the state's benefit. This "total state" is absolute in its methods and unlimited by law in its control and direction of its citizens.

A second ruling concept of fascism is embodied in the theory of social Darwinism. The doctrine of survival of the fittest and the necessity of struggle for life is applied by fascists to the life of a nation-state. Peaceful, complacent nations are seen as doomed to fall before more dynamic ones, making struggle and aggressive militarism a leading characteristic of the fascist state. Imperialism is the logical outcome of this dogma.

Another element of fascism is its elitism. Salvation from rule by the mob and the destruction of the existing social order can be effected only by an authoritarian leader who embodies the highest ideals of the nation. This concept of the leader as hero or superman, borrowed in part from the romanticism of Friedrich Nietzsche , Thomas Carlyle , and Richard Wagner , is closely linked with fascism's rejection of reason and intelligence and its emphasis on vision, creativeness, and "the will."

Fascist State:

Fascism has found adherents in all countries. Its essentially vague and emotional nature facilitates the development of unique national varieties, whose leaders often deny indignantly that they are fascists at all. In its dictatorial methods and in its use of brutal intimidation of the opposition by the militia and the secret police, fascism does not greatly distinguish itself from other despotic and totalitarian regimes. There are particular similarities with the Communist regime in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin. However, unlike Communism, fascism abhors the idea of a classless society and sees desirable order only in a state in which each class has its distinct place and function. Representation by classes (i.e., capital, labor, farmers, and professionals) is substituted for representation by parties, and the corporative state is a part of fascist dogma.

Origins of Fascism:

The growth of democratic ideology and popular participation in politics in the 19th cent. was terrifying to some conservative elements in European society, and fascism grew out of the attempt to counter it by forming mass parties based largely on the middle classes and the petty bourgeoisie, exploiting their fear of political domination by the lower classes. Forerunners of fascism, such as Georges Boulanger in France and Adolf Stöker and Karl Lueger in Germany and Austria, in their efforts to gain political power played on people's fears of revolution with its subsequent chaos, anarchy, and general insecurity. They appealed to nationalist sentiments and prejudices, exploited anti-Semitism , and portrayed themselves as champions of law, order, Christian morality, and the sanctity of private property.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 04:21 pm
Look no further for clear signs of fascism then this current idiot on the airwaves:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200502080002
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 04:29 pm
I guess she assuring her place. It's near impossible for me to fathom that she actually believes what she says. (crossing fingers)

Here's the link to the 14 Characteristics of Fascism referred to in the video link in my first post. More detail is given per characteristic.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

For Example:

14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 05:01 pm
So, squin, on a fascism scale of one to ten... where do you think America is?
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Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 05:21 pm
We've seen variants on this thread at least twice before. http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=43757
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42339

The fascism critique simply doesn't tell us much as a descriptive matter. It's more of a hot-button, emotional appeal.

I see no similarity between this government and the Nazis or Mussolini's Italy. The government has never threatened me with violence, and I feel quite free to do and say as I please. Many of us as A2K (and elsewhere) constantly post anti-Bush messages in a public forum. Anti-government messages are all over the Internet and the airwaves. That we American's can openly criticize the government without any fear is a pretty good sign that we're not in 1930's Germany.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 05:26 pm
squinney wrote:
I guess she assuring her place. It's near impossible for me to fathom that she actually believes what she says. (crossing fingers)

Here's the link to the 14 Characteristics of Fascism referred to in the video link in my first post. More detail is given per characteristic.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

For Example:

14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.


So, all things being equal, America is fascist because Kerry was a loser?
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 05:31 pm
Bouncer Bi-Montana Bear walks into the room.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 07:28 pm
McG, is that a picture of you?
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 07:40 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
McG, is that a picture of you?


It's what he's saying on the Gallery thread.

The amazing thing is that he's the first person I've seen that looks exacly like I pictured him.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 07:43 pm
I guess the word "pervasive" escapes McGentrix's mind. As in, fascism in America will swell quite slowly, starting with such lovely rhetoric as Ann Coulter, Michael Savage, and the rest of those boneheads who's only wish is to dupe the stupid masses into believing whatever trash they have to offer.

And IS that you, McGentrix? If so, it would explain quite a bit...

Quote:
Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery (Diebold), intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters (Ohio), destroying or disallowing legal votes (Kathleen Harris and Jeb Bush, Florida), and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite (The USSC).


That pretty much sums it up. All things equal, McGentrix? I seriously doubt it...
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El-Diablo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 08:21 pm
Quote:
Michael Savage


Ok his way of portraying his ideas may be unorthodox but the guy is not as conservative as we make him out to be. I mean he was very incredulous of the Iraq elections pointing out they may lead to a Shi'ite regime of sorts rather than a Sunni one. He's also opposed to many societal and immigration ideas of the Bush administration. He's probably one of the few who simply have their own personal ideas and not jsut ideas based on party lines and I respect that even if I don't like him or his ideas.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 10:06 pm
Dookiestix wrote:
I guess the word "pervasive" escapes McGentrix's mind. As in, fascism in America will swell quite slowly, starting with such lovely rhetoric as Ann Coulter, Michael Savage, and the rest of those boneheads who's only wish is to dupe the stupid masses into believing whatever trash they have to offer.

And IS that you, McGentrix? If so, it would explain quite a bit...

Quote:
Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery (Diebold), intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters (Ohio), destroying or disallowing legal votes (Kathleen Harris and Jeb Bush, Florida), and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite (The USSC).


That pretty much sums it up. All things equal, McGentrix? I seriously doubt it...


Then, by your same definition, we must be on our way to becoming a socialist/communistic state because those beliefs are "pervasive". We already have a welfare state, the scream for socialized medicine can be heard from every liberal dog-patch this side of Rhode Island, commentators like Ted Rall (who isn't being held in a prison for his anti-government activities), Al Franken, etc. Howard Dean is going to be in charge of the Democratic party, that should make for some interesting times.

I strenuously object to the characterization of America becoming fascist. It doesn't matter how elequently it is written, or how much some may want it on either side. It's just not gonna happen.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 10:14 pm
Montana wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
McG, is that a picture of you?


It's what he's saying on the Gallery thread.

The amazing thing is that he's the first person I've seen that looks exacly like I pictured him.


And that's a good thing, right? Cool
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 06:08 am
McGentrix wrote:
Then, by your same definition, we must be on our way to becoming a socialist/communistic state because those beliefs are "pervasive"....

I strenuously object to the characterization of America becoming fascist. It doesn't matter how elequently it is written, or how much some may want it on either side. It's just not gonna happen.


Normally, our country has a checks and balance. With Clinton, whom I assume is the most recent president in Rebub. eyes to have permeated the system with socialist / communist qualities, he was opposed and blocked at every opportunity. If an opportunity did not present, one was created.

At this point, there is no opposition to the current regime. There is no checks and balance in place to stop the movement towards fascism. If you can't see where any of the 14 points apply to our current state, you are purposely blind. Bush himself said a dictatorship would be a lot easier as long as he was the dictator. M. Scott Peck said that if a person tells you what / who they are, believe them.
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 07:30 am
Installing a philosophy that enbraces "ownership" is not facist.

Submitting a budget that calls for elimination of waste of taxpayer dollars is not facist.

Demanding that people live and nations live up to their responsibilities and treaties is not facist.

Reducing the tax burden on working class is not facist.

Showing pride for your country is not facist.

Calling out the democratic party for their obstructionist tendencies is not facist.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 08:13 am
It's not that I can't see where any of the 14 points can seem to apply, it's that the Republican party does not equal a fascist regime. It's our elected government. Elected by the people of the US to represent them.

You can probably pick anytime in history and wackos will be slamming the government because it is not performing the dog and pony show that particular whacko wants it to. That's what this use of fascism equates to. "fascism" is a buzz word. It's used to strike fear into the hearts of the liberals to try to motivate them and cast dispersions upon their opposition.

If anyone honestly believes that America is becoming a fascist state, I would strongly urge them to flee to Canada become they become a statistic in Guantanamo.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 08:28 am
McGentrix wrote:
Montana wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
McG, is that a picture of you?


It's what he's saying on the Gallery thread.

The amazing thing is that he's the first person I've seen that looks exacly like I pictured him.


And that's a good thing, right? Cool



Well, lets just say that I always considered you to be a bully, and you look the part. That just may be a good thing in your eyes Twisted Evil

It's very nice here in Canada. Went on a sleigh ride the other day and am looking forward to maple syrup day at the camp.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 10:01 am
woiyo wrote:
Installing a philosophy that enbraces "ownership" is not facist.

Submitting a budget that calls for elimination of waste of taxpayer dollars is not facist.

Demanding that people live and nations live up to their responsibilities and treaties is not facist.

Reducing the tax burden on working class is not facist.

Showing pride for your country is not facist.

Calling out the democratic party for their obstructionist tendencies is not facist.


1. If you look at the proposal as presented so far, the SS "reform" is not ownership and diverting funds to corporations (fund managers) is fascist.

2. Elimination of "waste" in funding of social programs while giving huge military increases is fascist.

3. Demanding that other nations live up to treaties we ourselves ignore, rewrite to suit current philosophy or refuse to sign is not just hypocritical, it is facist.

4. Reducing taxes on the middle class is facist. Not only does fascism require a class system, but the tax reform to which you refer actually benefited the rich to a much greater extent than anyone else and that is extremely fascist.

5. Showing pride for your country is not fascist? There's a difference between pride and what is actually taking place. What's happening with the "With us or against us" being applied to Americans, and those not supporting Bush and Co being labeled terrorists? Surely you haven't already forgotten the Republican rally cries of liberals/ Dems being responsible for the death of soldiers because we weren't waving our flags fast enough!
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