RICHARD NIXON'S REVENGE

Foxfyre wrote:

But then again, he was the first president to have to deal with a mostly hostile, critical, accusatory, and less-than-professional press and, having not had the conditioning for that, maybe that's why he was overly paranoid and/or overly secretive.

Oh please... Rolling Eyes

"He was paranoid, but he had a good reason..."?

Watergate was the high water mark for the MSM.

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What he did was pretty tame compared to some of his successors.

Uh, no. No, it wasn't.

Unless you are referring to invading a country on the pretext of exaggerated and fabricated intelligence. Which I doubt you were.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Quote:

But then again, he was the first president to have to deal with a mostly hostile, critical, accusatory, and less-than-professional press and, having not had the conditioning for that, maybe that's why he was overly paranoid and/or overly secretive.

Are you serious? Have you ever read the press reports on Lincoln, or Truman, or FDR? Teddy Roosevelt was parcticlly ridden out of Washington on a rail by negative press.

Hostile? Critical? Read the papers after the Bay of Pigs. I have come to believe that our increased involvement in Viet Nam was a kind of sop to those who wanted JFK to find some place where he could be tough on the Communists. Johnny we hardly knew ya.

LBJ's honeymoon after the assassination lasted about 100 days.

Nixon felt victimized his whole political career. He wasn't Eisenhower's first choice for VP, he got beat by an Eastern Establishment Catholic Liberal when he thought he was entitled to win, he got whipped running for Governor of California (You won't have Dick Nixon to kick around any more.), but even in the good times he remained on guard against any discouraging word, complied enemies lists and exacted his revenges in small, petty ways.

Do you know what I find remarkable about Woodward's writing, both back then (Watergate, Pentagon Papers, Incursions into Cambodia) and in his recent book? He's never hostile, he never sneers.

Joe(I read the news today, oh boy.)Nation

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I marvel at how some have such a warped vision of historical fact. They can rationalize that pigs just don't fly but they can fly to the moon.

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I'm not so bothered by the skewed view as I am the attempts at revisionism.

It's Kremlin-esque.

(That's the only reason this thread was birthed, and why she keeps kicking it to the top.)

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Yes, Joe, I am quite aware that all presidencies have received criticism from the press. But it is my opnion that the media took this to new and different heights during the Nixon administration, that the media abandoned its ethical principles to a new degree during the Nixon administration, and without the degree of hostility exhibited by the media during that era, the history may have evolved very differently.

As for those who wish to direct personal insults rather than participate in the discussion, you will please forgive me if I choose to ignore you.

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Foxfyre wrote:

But it is my opnion that the media took this to new and different heights during the Nixon administration, that the media abandoned its ethical principles to a new degree during the Nixon administration, and without the degree of hostility exhibited by the media during that era, the history may have evolved very differently.

Explain. Elaborate. Elucidate.

Please.

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I was a member of the media back then Pdiddie. I witnessed erosion of journalistic standards and ethics first hand. It is the primary reason I am not an official member of the media today.

Had the press not been so almost universally hostile to the Vietnam war, had it not descended in a virtual feeding frenzy when the Watergate burglary story first broke and then, when Watergate turned out to realy be a third-rate burglary, it turned its full fury on Nixon. Had that not happened, Nixon most likely would not have resigned, there would have been no President Ford, no evacuation of Saigon, or any of numerous other scenarios that made their way into U.S. history during that era. That is all speculation of course as everything is based on 'what if's'.

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Foxfyre wrote:

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Had the press not been so almost universally hostile to the Vietnam war, had it not descended in a virtual feeding frenzy when the Watergate burglary story first broke and then, when Watergate turned out to realy be a third-rate burglary, it turned its full fury on Nixon.

1) The press was not universally hostile to the Viet Nam war. Hardly, after the events of Chicago 1968, the temper of the American press was directed at the peace movement and the trials of the Chicago Seven who were treated as traitors in every paper from the Boston Globe to the LATIMES, meanwhile Spiro Agnew was getting massaged headlines from every statement he made against the nattering nabobs of negativity. Remember? The tv networks were showing war footage, but that was to PROMOTE the war effort, demonstrations and the like got no air time in 1970, 1971.
2)What feeding frenzy? I'm doing this from memory, but it seemed to me that there was two days of coverage and then nothing. A blurb about indictments around Labor Day and then, until the burglar's convictions in January, after the election, nothing. It wasn't until one of the guys going to jail wrote to Judge John Sirica (sp?) alleging a massive cover-up and money connections to the White House that anything got going. Even then, that was like April of 1973, the major news networks, with the execption of CBS, were ho-huming the story. Midway through the summer AFTER the Washington Post broke the story, the gates opened, a full year after the arrests.
3) Watergate was never a third rate burglary except in the eyes of Nixon's defenders. It was an assault of the electoral process ordered by the highest members of the President's staff with the KNOWLEDGE of the Attorney General of the United States. The President may or may not have actually ordered the break-in and other events (McGurder (sp) says he did), but there is no doubt that he participated in and assisted with the cover-up of those crimes.

Good grief, what does it take to make you understand the seriousness of these events? They tried to steal your country. This was not an attack by the press, it was an attack on the foundations of this nation by those in power and a defense by the free press saved us all.

Code:no evacuation of Saigon

well. what can i say?
We would have still been there then, and the Viet Nam Memorial would have tens of thousands more names and we would be a completely different nation than we are, and I think, not for the better.

Joe(You're going to make me start looking this stuff up.) Nation

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Intelligent post, Joe Nation.

Foxfyre wants to rewrite history. Nixon's revenge? Nixon is the victim of a hostile press? He's the victim of a feeding frenzy? It was just a third-rate burglary?

Some people can minimize and justify anything.

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He had no one to blame but himself.

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You being an anti-war activist and me being a win-a-war-if-you're-going-to-get-in-one person probably will never agree on the evacuation of Saigon Joe.

However, for the interest of accuracy here, I am posting the entire Wikipedia summary of the Watergate scandal. The information in the quote box is alleged 'the smoking gun' and the controversy rages on as to what Nixon's motives actually were in that incident. Nixon haters will interpret it the worst way; those who can see it more multi-dimensionally will generally leave open the possibility of various interpretations.

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This conversation occurred six days after the arrest of the burglars at the offices of the Democratic National Committee in the Watergate office complex. Here, the president and Haldeman, his closest aide and chief of staff, discuss a plan to stop the FBI's investigation into the break-in. They plan to have Vernon Walters, deputy director of the CIA, ask L. Patrick Gray, the acting director of the FBI, to "stay the hell out" of the Watergate investigation because it involved CIA national security operations. This conversation is called the "Smoking Gun" because it proved that Nixon was aware and helped plan the cover-up from almost the very beginning.
This conversation, originally subpoenaed by the Watergate Special Prosecution Force in the fall of 1973, was not turned over to the prosecutor until Aug. 2, 1974. The transcript of the tape was made public on Aug. 5 and the president resigned on Aug. 9.

Watergate scandal
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Watergate scandal (or just "Watergate") was an American political scandal and constitutional crisis of the 1970s, which eventually led to the resignation of President Richard Nixon. The affair was named after the hotel where the burglary that led to a series of investigations occurred.

The burglaryThe Senate investigation

The link of the Watergate burglary to the President's re-election campaign fundraising committee dramatically increased the profile of the crime and the consequent political stakes. Instead of ending with the trial and conviction of the burglars, the investigations grew broader than ever; a Senate committee chaired by Senator Sam Ervin was set up to examine Watergate and started to subpoena White House staff.

On April 30, Nixon was forced to ask for the resignations of two of his most powerful aides, Haldeman and Ehrlichman, both of whom would soon be indicted and ultimately go to prison. He also fired the White House counsel, John Dean, who had just testified before the Senate and would go on to become the key witness against Nixon himself.

On the same day, Nixon named a new Attorney General, Elliot Richardson, and gave him authority to designate a special counsel for the growing Watergate inquiry, who would be independent of the regular Justice Department hierarchy to preserve his independence. On May 18, Richardson named Archibald Cox to the position. The televised hearings began in the United States Senate the day before.
[edit]

The tapesArticles of impeachment, resignation, and convictionsAftermath

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Thanks for the post, Foxy, it saved me from going to go look up what I had wrong. Hey, I don't think I had anything wrong, pretty good old memory cooking here in this head, he said modestly.

Yeah... You are not not going to get me to fight the Viet Nam War again. Laughing

but this:

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those who can see it more multi-dimensionally will generally leave open the possibility of various interpretations.

Please, since I assume that you are one of those who can see things multi-dimensionally, list three of the various interpretations you havefor this :

Quote:

Here, the president and Haldeman, his closest aide and chief of staff, discuss a plan to stop the FBI's investigation into the break-in. They plan to have Vernon Walters, deputy director of the CIA, ask L. Patrick Gray, the acting director of the FBI, to "stay the hell out" of the Watergate investigation because it involved CIA national security operations.

What were these guys thinking?

Joe (It's not obstruction of Justice, we are saving FBI man workhours)Nation

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Good job at reminding me how disillusioned about America I became as a result of the Watergate hearings, Foxfyre. I recall watching them, and crying. Nixon and his crew certainly ripped political innocence from many people. Quite a legacy.

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Nixon haters will interpret it the worst way; those who can see it more multi-dimensionally will generally leave open the possibility of various interpretations.

Fascinating judgment.

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Joe writes

Quote:

Here, the president and Haldeman, his closest aide and chief of staff, discuss a plan to stop the FBI's investigation into the break-in. They plan to have Vernon Walters, deputy director of the CIA, ask L. Patrick Gray, the acting director of the FBI, to "stay the hell out" of the Watergate investigation because it involved CIA national security operations.

According to Charles Colson speaking informally some years ago, Nixon was loyal to his friends to a fault. It simply was not in him to hang somebody out to dry. The language was vintage Nixon, somewhat crude and quite profane when talking off the record. He was devastated if he felt a friend had lied to him or betrayed him, however, and he could be vindictive. Colson is convinced Nixon neither ordered or knew about the burglaries in advance and would have stopped them had he known.

What Wikipedia omitted and is not relfected in the clip, was the agonizing that was going on during this conversation and that was obvious on the tapes. Nixon said re the coverup (and this was played again and again once the tapes were made public) "It would be wrong for sure."

Colson was absolutely convinced Nixon accepted that he lied about what he knew and when he knew it, but that he was also absolutely convinced of his innocence of any wrongdoing in the matter.

(I couldn't get Colson to say whether or not he thought Nixon was innocent. Smile

)

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If one wasn't a Nixon hater before, after Watergate they should have been. He virtually andsinglehandedly torpedoed the effectiveness of the Presidency for years to come. But how quickly the public forgets and characterizing Reagan as repairing that image is also a crock.

By the way, anyone can contribute to the free encylopedia Wikipedia and write articles that are not free from the "interpretation" that seems to be the complaint against the media that sticks in everyone's craw. In fact, with Blogs abounding who not go to the trouple of substantiating their stories to the standards of the Washington Post during Watergate, it's a free-for-all of dubious information.

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The Wikipedia article posted is pretty much on target though it does leave out some information that some would consider pertinent. But at least it does give names, dates, and sequence of events that appear to be reasonably accurate; however, like Joe, I am working from memory here.

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When all is said and done the trickster wasn't near as bad as he could have been considering he was a psychotic paranoid with grandiose ideation. After all he did give us "peace with honor" which ranks right up there with Reagan's vegetable ketchup.

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I'm not working from my memory but also my close friend who was in the administration and is still friendly with John Dean. Peace with honor was clearly not achieved and it was delayed until thousands more lost their lives. Seems that is now in the realm "collateral damage" which is another rationalization that is a catch-all for all sorts of negligence. The tip of the iceburg was bad enough but that iceburg nearly sank the Constitution and certainly riddled the Presidency with so many holes that it's been leaky ever since.

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(Those second terms are a bitch).

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And John Dean was the star witness against Nixon. And to a man--and I honestly have not heard any of those who went to prison either by indictment or by confession say otherwise--all say that they hold John Dean in utter contempt and most to this day would say he was not truthful in his testimony.

If Deep Throat ever is identified, we may learn more. I will never believe that the American public got the whole story.

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RICHARD NIXON'S REVENGE

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