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RICHARD NIXON'S REVENGE

 
 
bayinghound
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 12:22 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Well your rebuttal was all opinion Bayhound and I respect your opinion though I disagree with your take on it.


To be fair, Foxfyre, we're exchanging opinions are we not?

But, yet, and however, I don't think that pointing out that you yourself have mentioned that both sides of the government are leary of independent investigations is opinion, however. Saying that because it makes no sense does not mean it was not done is not opinion. Pointing out that you yourself said that Nixon would likely have weathered Watergate just fine had he just admitted it is not opinion.

Foxfyre wrote:
The difference is, any White House operatives who allegedly outed Valerie Plame to six different reporters could be fingered, identified, accused, and, because to do this would be a felony, arrested, convicted, imprisoned.l In my opinion, there is no way they called up six reporters to out a CIA agent. And if they did, it is my error that I will live with. You don't know me if you think I would not be screaming for their heads.


Yes, that would be the difference. That and, if we agree that arguing against the war is "providing comfort to the enemy" as Bush did, it is also treason.

I hope to hold you to your word, though I doubt this issue will be resolved until the Dems control at least one branch of government.

Foxfyre wrote:
Out of curiosity, would you be screaming for all heads or just the guilty ones?


The guilty ones and those guilty of knowingly protecting the guilty from prosecution, which is likely a lot of them. Very Happy

So I answered your question.

Will you answer me as to whether you think Bush's military record was exemplary?

Foxfyre wrote:
How many professional types do you think would risk a felony conviction by calling up six reporters though?


Having worked with thousands of professional types, I think a lot. Indeed, they, being in all likelihood political operatives, may not even have known the seriousness of the crime or that it was a crime. Of course ignorance is no defense in the law nor, in this case, should it be.

Dookiestix wrote:
You may be fighting a worthless cause here with Fox, but I certainly admire your persistent writings in stating your case. Very well done!


Well thanks & keep up the good fight, too. It is an excellent question just how pissed the Rubs would be had the Dems been accused of such malfeasance.

I don't think that it's a worthless cause engaging Foxfyre, though. He's been entirely friendly and though I doubt I'll change his mind about much, there may be some places where our views might change a bit.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 12:40 pm
Quote:
I don't think that it's a worthless cause engaging Foxfyre, though. He's been entirely friendly and though I doubt I'll change his mind about much, there may be some places where our views might change a bit.


Perhaps there will be moments where those views can share a common belief. But, from my experience here and formerly on Abuzz.com, the ideological views from both the Left and the Right have become much more polarized over the years.

The dissemination of information and how it's interpreted by the masses has changed so profoundly that a new reality is being created by those who have the most power to do so. It seems as though one of our last lines of defense are the bloggers and the continued objectivity that comes from a foreign press.

It's a brave, new, and scary world (IMO)...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 12:58 pm
Bayinghound wrote
Quote:
To be fair, Foxfyre, we're exchanging opinions are we not?
Quote:
But, yet, and however, I don't think that pointing out that you yourself have mentioned that both sides of the government are leary of independent investigations is opinion, however. Saying that because it makes no sense does not mean it was not done is not opinion. Pointing out that you yourself said that Nixon would likely have weathered Watergate just fine had he just admitted it is not opinion.


Are you being sarcastic in a friendly way here? Or are you serious? Because I think all these things are opinion. An opinion is not always suspect or untrue, however, and one person's informed opinion is every bit as good as the next person's.

Quote:
Yes, that would be the difference. That and, if we agree that arguing against the war is "providing comfort to the enemy" as Bush did, it is also treason.


Did he say that? Or has it been said that he said that? He specifically used the word treason? I would have to see a credible link on that to believe it. I think people who publicly demonstrate and speak against the war do give comfort to the enemy and I have been consistent in that view since Vietnam since people in the military and the enemy itself have said that it did. I can believe the President has said as much. But treason? Only if done in the enemy camp.

Quote:
Will you answer me as to whether you think Bush's military record was exemplary?


I think Bush's record was probably pretty typical of those serving in the Air National Guard and you have to be a bit above average, I think, to get into the Air National Guard. His commanding officers say he was a quick learner and a good pilot. The allegations of AWOL have never been proved or substantiated by anyone in authority and he received an honorable discharge right on schedule. He has never bragged about his military experience or attempted to use it for political advantage. As Commander in Chief he is entitled to play soldier a bit. All presidents in my memory have done so at least once. So exemplary? You would have to define the term. Do I think he fulfilled his duties to the satisfaction of the military? Yes, I believe he did. And he has signed the Form 180 putting it all out there for anybody to see and speculate on. (Kerry still has not done so even after promising on national TV that he would.)

Quote:
Having worked with thousands of professional types, I think a lot. Indeed, they, being in all likelihood political operatives, may not even have known the seriousness of the crime or that it was a crime. Of course ignorance is no defense in the law nor, in this case, should it be
0 Replies
 
bayinghound
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 02:30 pm
Foxfyre wrote:


fair enough

Foxfyre wrote:
Quote:
But, yet, and however, I don't think that pointing out that you yourself have mentioned that both sides of the government are leary of independent investigations is opinion, however. Saying that because it makes no sense does not mean it was not done is not opinion. Pointing out that you yourself said that Nixon would likely have weathered Watergate just fine had he just admitted it is not opinion.


Are you being sarcastic in a friendly way here? Or are you serious? Because I think all these things are opinion.


No, I'm being serious. Which ones are opinion?

Foxfyre wrote:
Did he say that? Or has it been said that he said that? He specifically used the word treason? I would have to see a credible link on that to believe it. I think people who publicly demonstrate and speak against the war do give comfort to the enemy and I have been consistent in that view since Vietnam since people in the military and the enemy itself have said that it did. I can believe the President has said as much. But treason? Only if done in the enemy camp.


"Treason" was never used as far as I know. However, "aid and comfort" was and the general argument was part of the talking points for the GOP, some links:

Cheney's remarks

President Bush's remarks: "You can embolden an enemy by sending a mixed message. You can dispirit the Iraqi people by sending mixed messages. You send the wrong message to our troops by sending mixed messages. "
Bush & Allawi Press Conference

Daschle accused of aiding and comforting
PBS report on Thune Daschle Debate

Sen. Orrin Hatch on Fox:

"Jon: Badmouthing what's going on over there, are you suggesting that Senator Kerry and his critical speech yesterday of the Bush administration policy, are you suggesting that he is in some way not supporting our soldiers?

Hatch: I'm not suggesting it. I'm telling you that's what is exactly what's happening here. If you look at what they're saying on the other side of this equation and this presidential race, they're consistently saying things that I think undermine our young men and women who are serving over there ...."
Daily Kos transcript (not your favorite, but give me a break re: time to find transcript)

Ashcroft's defense of the Patriot Act in the Senate Judiciary Committee--the one that started it all--"We need honest, reasoned debate; not fearmongering. To those who pit Americans against immigrants, and citizens against non-citizens; to those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty; my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists - for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve."
Transcript of Senate Testimony

Foxfyre wrote:
I think Bush's record was probably pretty typical of those serving in the Air National Guard and you have to be a bit above average, I think, to get into the Air National Guard. His commanding officers say he was a quick learner and a good pilot. The allegations of AWOL have never been proved or substantiated by anyone in authority and he received an honorable discharge right on schedule. He has never bragged about his military experience or attempted to use it for political advantage. As Commander in Chief he is entitled to play soldier a bit. All presidents in my memory have done so at least once. So exemplary? You would have to define the term. Do I think he fulfilled his duties to the satisfaction of the military? Yes, I believe he did. And he has signed the Form 180 putting it all out there for anybody to see and speculate on. (Kerry still has not done so even after promising on national TV that he would.)


fair enough

Foxfyre wrote:


Nope, not kidding. Are they that vindictive? Yep, without doubt.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 02:38 pm
No need to find the remaining links for those GOPers BH, because I believe every single one is probably quoted accurately, and I would imagine you could easily find incidents where every one said it on more than one occasion to more than one audience. And I agree with every word they are saying. I have consistently stated again and again, you cannot support the troops and in the same breath say what they are doing is wrong, immoral, unethical, etc. etc. etc. The vast majority are very proud of what they are doing, what they have accomplished, the legacy they hope to leave behind. And they believe the terrorists are encouraged by every new account of a U.S. protest or anti-war speech or column and they cheer when the Democrats scream "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time." In the past, the U.S. has turned tail and run when there have been political protests. The terrorists have every hope we will again. And they can then claim victory.
0 Replies
 
bayinghound
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 04:56 pm
I'm not surprised that you hold that view, though I think the idea that dissent is equivalent to aiding and comforting the enemy, i.e. treason, is, well, just a tad self-serving. Dissent is OK as long as, well, it's not anyone who disagrees with us. If they disagree with us, then it's treason.

I would also note that no Democrat said the efforts of the troops was unethical, but that the decision to go to war was based on a false--and falsified--premise and that the way in which it was being prosecuted was not likely to produce success.

But, that aside ...

What I hope for from the Rubs is that, given their rather strict definition of aiding and comforting with respect to this, that they will be strict enough when it comes to whomever in the White House has given direct intelligence to the enemy via giving out Plame's status. Indeed, if anything comes to light of any sort similar to this that the same strict standards of liability will be utilized.

*********

I take it you believe we would have won Vietnam had it not been for those pesky protestors. I find that possibility to verge on the ridiculously absurd, but no one knows for sure. I would note that the protests against the Union's draft in the Civil War, and against war in both WWI and WWII did not keep us from winning.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 08:45 pm
Years after the Vietnam war, some high ranking North Vietnamese officers went on record to say that the Tet offensive was devastating to them and they were disorganized and pretty well whipped. But the sight of American flags burning in London and on American TV inspired them to keep fighting on. And it was those very same protests that caused us to quit.

A majority of Americans hung in there with the President and the troops this time around and all but true unbelievers cannot see the opportunity for wonderful things to come from it. I do think most of the terrorists would have packed it in by now if a very large majority of Americans had stood behind the troops and at least some lives would not have been lost. There is no way to know that for sure. But you only have to read the blogs from the pro-terrorists to see that they view opposition to Bush as support for them.

That should not be interpreted that I consider all anti-war people, pacifists, true conscientious objectors as traitors, treasonous, or having intention to harm the troops or even necessarily as unpatriotic. I do think some would be well advised to understand the additional dangers they create for the troops with their visible 'dissent'. There will be time enough for post mortems once it is all over. For now I would like for the troops to know they have their whole country behind them.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 09:57 pm
What pro-terrorist blogs have you been reading, Fox?

And as far as Vietnam was concerned, it was the INSURGENCY which became the most effective campaign in ousting the American forces once and for all. It was relentless, and in the end, we lost. I suggest watching the Fog of War.

What you have also completely failed to acknowledge is that, unlike the Vietnam war, protestors were out in force BEFORE we even invaded Iraq. And they were protestors from around the world. And they were predicting EXACTLY what is taking place right now in Iraq. And they were also protesting that the neocon death cult NOT send our sons and daughters into a highly specious war.

You refer to terrorists in such generic terms that it defeats the purpose of the U.S. actually trying to FIGHT terrorism effectively. It is the black and white world offered on a silver platter to the American public which has framed this dialogue when coming from the neoconservatives, and it is purely designed to consolidate power. Plain and simple. Firing effective Arab translators because they are homosexual is mearly one example, and it is beyond ridiculous and only serves a political purpose by the neocons. My understanding is that we need EVERY able bodied citizen to help in the cause against terrorism. That doesn't seem to be the case with George Bush. It also doesn't seem to be ANY concern that suspected terrorists in THIS country are perfectly able to buy firearms, and have their background checks expunged 48 hours later. You can thank the NRA lobby for making sure we don't know who those suspected terrorists are who BOUGHT those guns.

So, in essence, this "war" on terrorism has been so poorly conducted, that when Bush mentioned last week that we're still looking for bin Laden, Porter Goss looked sincerely surprised, with a gesture that clearly indicated that he wasn't sure WTF Bush was talking about.

But then again, nobody seems to know WTF Bush is talking about these days. Especially with SS reform, which has done NOTHING to boost trust in him. He has to have completely rehearsed townhall sessions in order to make his pitch.

It's just unbelievable that ANYBODY could possibly support this moron.

But do NOT question the liberals out there who DO support our troops (me being one of them, and who knows several soldiers in the field AND in the air) and only want them to return home as soon as possible. I can just as well argue that neoconservatives are even MORE treasonous, as they are only concerned with political capital, at the cost of thousands of American lives and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi lives.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 03:02 am
Foxfyre wrote:
But you only have to read the blogs from the pro-terrorists to see that they view opposition to Bush as support for them.


Links please, so that we may do so.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 06:44 am
I've looked and looked, all I can find is complaints that Kerry hasn't signed a 180 and claims that Bush has, but I cannot find either a copy of Bush's document nor even a date when he is supposed to signed this very, very important piece of paper.

Please help.

Joe(trying hard to help the cons prove their case.) Nation
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 09:11 am
Well he said he did. I don't know that is something that would be posted on the campaign website but it could have been. The best case for Bush signing the Form 180 is that the press isn't using banner headlines demanding that he do that.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 09:13 am
Dookie you are supposed to be ignoring me, remember? I'm not going to look up all those links but they're scattered all over A2K on several different threads. I didn't originate any of them but have followed them when others posted them.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 01:14 pm
Quote:
Well he said he did.
Nope. He didn't. And Ari couldn't say if he had signed one either, just that he had issued a directive as C in C, which is why there isn't one anywhere that I can find. (I admit it, I'm not looking that hard.)

I think the press is giving George a pass on this. Sons of privilege are used to getting passes and slots in National Guard Units.

You know what else I can't find (I mean beside the Grand Jury testimony
Embarrassed Embarrassed ouch, goofed on that, didn't I?) is that page JW keeps referring to in the Rathergate report that says W volunteered for Nam.

Is there a URL for that page somewhere?

Joe(I'm am just so thick sometimes)Nation
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 01:58 pm
Some facts on Bush's military record
http://www.nationalreview.com/owens/owens200402120830.asp

One account indicating Bush said he did not volunteer to go to Vietnam
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4230576

This account says Bush volunteered for a special group that was slated to go to Vietnam.
http://www.volunteertv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2346701
0 Replies
 
bayinghound
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 03:01 pm
The so-called "Rathergate Report" PDF file

JW says that on p. 31 it notes that Bush volunteered for Vietnam. I couldn't find this on either p. 31 of the report or the 31st page of the pdf file.

It may well be in there, of course.
0 Replies
 
bayinghound
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 03:08 pm
Foxfyre --

Well, they may well have been encouraged to keep on fighting by the alleged efforts by Nixon's foreign policy team to scuttle the Paris peace talks.

Another perhaps instructive anecdote about the war, and I'm paraphrasing, was what one general apparently replied when told that 20 Vietcong died for every American soldier, "That's true. It is also irrelevant."
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 03:42 pm
Many people are likely to say many different things about any given issue. I doubt any one of us has the absolute whole truth about anything. So we go with the best information we have at the time. I was raised to believe that there is only one good outcome to any war: win it and then be an honorable victor. I will have a problem with anything that gets in the way of that.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 04:31 pm
Oops. Sorry Joe and bayinghound, the info I was referencing was actually on p130 of the panel's report. It states:


Quote:
"However, Mapes had information prior to the airing of the September 8 Segment that President Bush, while in the TexANG, did volunteer for service in Vietnam but was turned down in favor of more experienced pilots.

For example, a flight instructor who served in the TexANG with Lieutenant Bush advised Mapes in 1999 that Lieutenant Bush "did want to go to Vietnam but others went first." Similarly, several others advised Mapes in 1999 and again in 2004 before September 8, that Lieutenant Bush had volunteered to go to Vietnam but did not have enough flight hours to qualify. The Panel is troubled that this excerpt was used when there was information that contradicted, or at least weakened, the implication of the exchange between Rather and Lieutenant Strong.

The Panel finds that virtually every excerpt used from the lieutenant Strong interview was either inaccurate or misleading. Indeed, the Panel questions whether any Lieutenant Strong excerpts should have been used at all, given his total lack of personal knowledge.


In the records President Bush released, there's a document that has a checkmark placed next to "Volunteer for Vietnam". I had it saved for a while, but can't find it now.

BUT...what I'm wondering is why, once the panel's report was published, we didn't hear a word about this finding. Of course, Mapes and Rather and everyone else involved knew it all along.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 06:44 pm
And that's what frosts me. Rather, to uphold some kind of journalistic ethics if for no other reason, had a duty to verify the authenticity of supporting documents and veracity of interviewees quoted before going on the air to smear a sitting president and/or presidential candidate.

Given what he had to know, how can anybody believe that he did not knowingly use falsified and/or questionable documents/information? Big media should have called him on that as well as denouncing CBS for firing all the 'little people' and letting Rather keep part of his prestigious job.
0 Replies
 
bayinghound
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 11:47 pm
I agree that that is troubling, Foxfyre.
0 Replies
 
 

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