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Rice - getting away from "Punish France, ignore Germany..."?

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 12:42 pm
A digression here -

Just whuttinhell is accomplished - aside from personal feelgoods and gotchyas - by carryin' on with what really are silly, petty, personal feuds? If the shoe pinches, don't try to force it on. Raggin' on one another's arguments and positions is one thing, raggin' on one another is another - and a totally pointless, childish, boorish, and silly thing at that, IMO - of interest only to those directly involved and gettin' off on it. I'd think everyone has better things to do than squabble like a buncha spoiled kids, and more interestin', pertinent, topical, stimulatin', informative things to post. Witch hunts and flame wars are just plain uncool, if ya ask me.

'Course, mebbe I'm wrong.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 12:55 pm
Timber - I couldn't agree with you more. I do object however to baseless allegations involving my name (nobody else's) and since I see such an allegation being made with no supporting evidence I wish to see the evidence.

As far as Whooda, I know him from a long-defunct website and this is the first time I see him on A2K; of any past disagreements of his with anyone else here I know nothing. I did see this other poster, DLowan, on one other thread here but have most certainly never addressed him/her, so am surprised to see my name included in one of his/her posts concerning Whooda. I asked for an explanation for this inclusion and plan to wait for one.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 12:59 pm
Finally, Timber, you've known me long enough to know that infallibility isn't a claim I make. If it can be shown to me that some statement I made on this thread - being the only one, say again, in which I've seen Whooda - was based on a "misperception" then I will correct it.
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WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 12:59 pm
timberlandko wrote:
'Course, mebbe I'm wrong.


Mebbe, mebbe not.

Can't speak for anyone else here, only myself ... the bulk of my most recent comments refers to the wholesale labeling of anything approaching disagreement with words such as "silly" or "tiring" or an assortment of other slurs.

Yeah, it degenerates from there, but whointhehell died and made certain people the authority on whose opinions are post-worthy or not?
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WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 01:10 pm
Helen: I almost replied to the "misperception" allegation made earlier. I assumed she was referring to your statement that multi-named posters exist on A2K. She said they did not.

My post would have asked ... what keeps me from posting as JoeBlow from home, JoeBlue at work, JoeBleu at the library, etc.? Unless there's some safeguard of which I'm unaware, then it certainly would seem possible for your multi-named flakes to exist.

Timber - And that would be yet another example of the wholesale dismissal of others' opinions. Scroll back and read the actual comments. On what/whose authority are the comments based other than personal opinion?

Petty? Mebbe. Irritating as hell? Definitely.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 03:56 pm
Whooda - as to your question on whether it's possible to post with several names on this site: there's nothing in the software to stop it. There's no SSL certificate, which would limit identities to one per computer, and anonymizer sites (which can mask the originating IP for log-in when the same computer is used) seem to be allowed as well; networked computers would come up with different IPs anyway. That's without allowing for separate computers to which the person might have access.

However the code does stop others from impersonating an existing name, which was a major security fault of Abuzz.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 05:10 pm
WhoodaThunk wrote:
HofT wrote:
Whooda - there has been a lot of abuse on this forum from compulsive posters (mercifully disappeared from thread in the last couple of pages), multiple-named flakes (vast databank available on request) and spammers of all kinds including by PMs. I've never found Craven de Kere to concur to any of those activities however, so if I were you I would simply e-mail the "help" link you were given and ask for PM privileges.


Helen - I guess I'm surprised to hear of the multi-named types existing here as I thought that was the main reason for the migration from Abuzz before its demise. Too bad, especially when they start conversing with each other. Like a schizophrenic in a house of mirrors.

Again, thanks for the info.


Here are the posts, by the way, containing what I referred to as misinformation.

I took you both to be accusing people on this thread of multi-names and conversing with eacdh other as such - this I know to be untrue - as I have known most of the folk you would have been accusing of this for a long time.

Looking at it again, you both may (except for the "compulsive posters (mercifully disappeared from thread in the last couple of pages) - but hey, I love you too) have been referring to the site in general.

If you were, I have no comment to make - though I would be surprised (but I am not privy to the running of the site).

If you were referring to people on this thread, you are promulgating misinformation.

I am sorry if I have musunderstood you.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 05:24 pm
DLowan - thank you for the explanation and the attendant apology.

Since I generally express myself with precision I'm surprised that anyone mistook "on this forum" with "on this thread."

However the matter is closed as far as I'm concerned. Thank you again.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 05:34 pm
Lash wrote:
On Condi's tour, she has repeatedly backed Bush's foreign policy toward Iraq--and told the rest of the world it's time to quit carping and be about the business of helping Iraq as it embraces democracy.


Here is something of Lash's and Rice's that I agree with!!!

I agree the invasion was an illegitimate act (but let us not re-hash that AGAIN) - but, the thing being done, I agree that assisting with rebuilding, and, if it can happen, helping Iraq towards a working democracy is the business of now.

What was Rice specifically wanting in relation to this from Europe during her tour, does anyone know?

Is there a sense of how things went, overall? Any definite gains/changes?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 05:45 pm
Lash wrote:
It is so weird to have the same people, and suddenly so much press in Europe about how they're different.

It's sort of like they're giving themselves an excuse to soften the anti-Americanism.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the Oil For Food program--the impending spotlight on the guilty--and their concern we may close the thing down. It would significantly impede the gravy train for many of them.

Will be interesting to see how this all goes...


Indeed. I got criticised for preferring nuance in foreign policy earlier - and never had time to reply.

This is, I think, an example of the results of a bit of it (not discounting other factors, of course). You see - these people HAVE changed, not intrinsically, of course, but in how they present themselves and America's attitude.

Although, of course, the conflicting interests do not change, we being social animals deeply attuned to social signals, DO respond to a less confrontive attitude, I think.
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timberlandko
 
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Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 06:00 pm
Crass of me perhaps, but I have a suspicion a buncha the impetus behind the apparent incipient European move toward a softenin' of official stance re The US has to do with critical analysis of import/export figures, tourism data, relative economic growth rates, and currency relationship trendin's - coupled with the belated realization that The Ongoing US Administration, with its clearly defined, unambiguously stated, resolutely implemented agenda, is an accomplished fact with a 4-year contract.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 06:41 pm
Yep. Probably a lot to some of Timber's points...

Our admin has not changed.

Europe is falling over themselves as if it was an entirely different group of people in DC.

They have a motive. Looking forward to finding out what it is.... Dollars in Iraqi construction... ?
Ah, well.... we'll see.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 06:48 pm
The real question is whether the president and the europeans are willing to engage in a serious dialogue or continue to talk past each other. It doesn't really matter what anyone's motives are. Unfortunately this will probably not happen as long as the citizens remain somewhere in the 85% range opposed to the US intervention in Iraq (strange as it may seem to the repubs, the europeans elect their governments and have this silly idea that those elected should follow the will of the people) the EU taken in entirity has a greatrt gnp than the US and growing so I differ with Timber's take on the economic front. The not too distant furture will most likely have 3 super-powers (China/EU/USA) which will most likely result in the USA being no more than 2nd in the pecking order. In the long run economic power will always beat military power. In the meantime terrorism will confront everyone and will get even more nasty as "we" bicker among ourselves.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 07:54 pm
Lash wrote:
It's sort of like they're giving themselves an excuse to soften the anti-Americanism.

Well, definitely. America's simply too big and powerful to keep on fighting on a continuous basis. So with the Iraq invasion now a fait accompli, a lot of European leaders are thinking its best to just get back to getting along again, on at least some reasonable level somehow. And so, any opening on the American side, perceived or real, is grabbed at as - yes - an excuse for some big symbolic diplomatic making up.

Course, the same goes the other way round. Chirac is still the same Chirac, and he aint changed his mind about the desired multipolarity of the global system or the need for a European counterweight to US power, but you hear preciously little about "Freedom Fries" in DC anymore either. Schroeder is still Schroeder - he's still lobbing new ideas about reforming NATO, still promoting the UN and dismissing American proposals of sending NATO to Iraq instead - yet Rice is talking up every real or perceived rapprochement by what she no longer calls "Old Europe".

Both comes down to pretty much the same thing. The leaders in government on both sides know that they dont have much choice but to make up - to some level at least, again. But they're well aware that they did rouse their grassroots supporters, their populations, into a virulent resentment of those others, those damn Yankees / Frenchies, so they cant just go make up all like that - they have to first make it look to their own supporters as if its the other side thats being all apologetic and crawling back to them and all.

Judging from how Rice's visit is described here in Europe, and how you describe the European politicians' behaviour, both sides are doing a swell job.

I guess as long as everyone thinks its the other side thats being all eager and apologetic, it works, and everyone ends up happy with what de facto is a reconciliation of sorts for now.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 08:06 pm
Dys--

I think you have a point, at least about China.

I saw Rice on C-SPAN today---(that is one busy woman)--saying we are concerned about the size and continuing growth of China's army....

When's the last time we said something like that?

You remember before 911, we'd just had a dogfight with China--and they kidnapped our crew.

Wonder what's going on re China...? What led you to make your statement?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 10:36 pm
So - who do folk see is going to be top dog? EU or China?

What do you see as the importance of the war and the budget going into deficit will be on the US in that equation?

Great posts, Nimh and Dys!
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 11:23 pm
http://nationaljournal.com/scripts/printpage.cgi?/crook.htm

WEALTH OF NATIONS
Are America And Europe Now Friends? Maybe Not For Long

By Clive Crook, National Journal
© National Journal Group Inc.
Friday, Feb. 18, 2005

When George W. Bush visits Europe next week, the mood will be much friendlier than of late. Condoleezza Rice and even the normally blunt-speaking Donald Rumsfeld have prepared the president's way, conducting what by this administration's standards is a charm offensive on European capitals. And the Europeans seem quite willing to be charmed: They, too, are smiling sweetly. What has changed, all of a sudden? Perhaps less than you might think.

What separates the U.S. and Europe is not just differences in style, but differences in substance -- some that are intractable.

Of course, it is good that the United States and Europe are on better terms. Of course, it is desirable that they should cooperate, where they have foreign-policy goals in common (and they do have some in common). Still, nobody need get carried away. What continues to separate the United States and Europe is not just differences in style, much as these may infuriate both sides, but differences in substance -- lots of them, and some that are intractable. Next week's speeches and handshakes might glide over that fact, but they will not change it.

On Europe's side, a few things have prompted this apparent warming of relations, as far as it goes. The first is simply that Bush remains in the White House. Most of Europe's governments wanted John Kerry to win; a few went so far as to make it obvious. Even Tony Blair, the Bush administration's closest ally, would have been delighted to see a Democrat elected. (Ideologically, Iraq notwithstanding, the prime minister and Bush are poles apart, and Bush is a perpetual embarrassment to Blair within his party.) But Bush will be around for another four years. Whether they like it or not, Europe's leaders will have to work with him. To some degree, they are just putting on a big false smile and steeling themselves for that ugly prospect.

Another main reason for the altered mood is the Iraqi election, which prompted a bigger shift than might have been guessed. Restoring relations with Europe was not much in the Bush administration's mind when it planned Iraq's electoral timetable. Building an autonomous nation, undermining the insurgents, and advancing the U.S. military exit were doubtless the immediate goals. But it is not just the insurgents whose position has been undermined by the emergence of a new democratic order in Iraq. The election's remarkable success -- demonstrating the Iraqis' passionate desire for democracy, an opportunity that only the overthrow of Saddam Hussein could have given them -- makes it far more difficult for Europe's war opponents to maintain their accustomed stance of moral superiority.

The election does not repair the broken justification for the war; it does not redeem the errors of postwar planning and execution; and, at least for now, it will do nothing to lighten America's military and fiscal burdens in Iraq. What it does do is make a certain kind of European smugness untenable.

The view that the war was a comprehensive moral failure no longer stands: Nobody who watched the scenes of Iraqis queuing to vote can any longer believe that. Going forward, Europe's objections to the war will therefore have to become a bit more complicated and a bit less confident. This course correction is well under way. Now that Iraq has a semi-legitimate semi-democratic government, standing aside from America's efforts to speed progress no longer looks so principled. More European countries, including even France, are now cooperating with the United States in the training of Iraqi security forces and in other ways.

Until just this week, it had looked as though the president's visit to Europe might be particularly ill-timed in one respect. On February 16, the Kyoto Protocol -- the international agreement to curb emissions of greenhouse gases -- formally went into effect. This treaty represents Europe's single greatest commitment to environmental probity. Under Bush, America has been a militant opponent of the whole approach. As a result, the United States has withdrawn from the treaty process and is having nothing to do with it. For Europe's America-bashers, this would have been a handy stick with which to beat the president on this trip, given those awkwardly favorable recent developments in Iraq.

Happily for the president, if not for the global environment, the Kyoto deal seems to be unraveling from the start. For instance, Britain's government is this very week engaging in an embarrassing row with the European Commission over the limits it will accept for carbon emissions under Europe's new, supposedly Kyoto-friendly, trading system for emissions permits. Having cast itself as a champion of the Kyoto approach to global warming, Britain is scrambling to ensure that its power plants and heavy industries do not actually have to do anything to comply with the new regime. Britain is not alone in this.

As the Kyoto treaty takes effect -- if you can call this taking effect -- it becomes increasingly clear that it is going to make little if any difference, and not just because the United States, along with heavy carbon-emitters such as China and India, is standing aside. For most of the countries that made much of their virtue in unveiling this new regime, it will be business as usual. Global warming will still be a point of contention in the president's meetings next week, but embarrassment and disarray among supposed Kyoto advocates will make things much easier for Bush.

Looking beyond next week's photo ops, global warming, paradoxically, is an issue on which you can expect some meeting of the minds. On one side is said to be the United States and its materialist, consumer-oriented, SUV-driving society, and on the other, Europe's wise environmental custodians who insist on recycled stationery. But guess what: The much-trumpeted differences are not so great after all. In some ways, it is a classic difference of style not substance.

For exactly the same reasons, Europe's governments are no more willing than America's to hobble economic growth and living standards in an effort to curb greenhouse gases. The same goes for the developing countries. That is the substance. On the other hand, it is America's style -- or Bush's, at any rate -- to come out and say that, and make no apology. Whereas it is Europe's style to pretend to be doing something, and especially to make a huge fuss about international cooperation, even if its cooperative efforts, like the Kyoto Protocol, do not in fact work.

Yet a meeting of the minds on global warming seems likely soon, because neither side can be happy with its present position. The Bush administration acknowledges, and even appears to believe, that policies to abate carbon emissions are going to be necessary: Certainly, America's big producers and industrial consumers of energy are beginning to make bets on that outcome by investing in low-carbon technologies. Europe, for its part, is seeing that it is going to have to think much more seriously about the costs of abatement, and about how to bear them efficiently and equitably, if it is to devise policies that will work. Despite appearances, the quarrel between America and Europe over global warming should not be so difficult to settle. The question is only whether it will be settled quickly enough and in the right way, so that the world moves promptly toward a more effective and intelligent global-warming policy.

The deep disagreements arise in other areas, where the attitudes and interests of Europe and the United States -- as opposed merely to their preferred modes of posturing -- genuinely diverge. Israel and Palestine are one such issue. For political and historical reasons, America and Europe line up on different sides of that seemingly insoluble dispute. If the current efforts for peace fail, which is all too likely, Israel-Palestine will continue to sour trans-Atlantic relations. That perennial aside, at the top of the list of new divisive questions stand Iran and China.

Simplifying, but not outrageously, America's instinct is to recognize and confront threats to its security; Europe's is to deny these threats for as long as possible and then appease. In the case of Iran and China, compounding that hardwired difference in attitudes is the matter of interests. Europe hopes (and it may be right) that America is at greater risk than itself from rogue regimes and sponsors of terrorism such as Iran. And Europe knows that if China should ever attack Taiwan, it will be the American military, not its own troops, that may very well be drawn into the fight.

So whereas America wants to confront Iran over its efforts to develop nuclear weapons, starting with a U.N. Security Council resolution and moving perhaps, in due course, to military action, Europe prefers to stick with its own -- so far patently unsuccessful -- diplomatic efforts. And Europe, over strenuous American objections, is preparing to relax its embargo on arms sales to China, while the United States first wants to see progress there on democracy and human rights. Each of these issues, if things go badly, will be at least as divisive for trans-Atlantic relations as the war in Iraq. Bear that in mind next week.

_____________________________________________________________

Lifting the arms embargo will be a very dangerous game for the Euros to play and I've no doubts will be seen here as a ploy to weaken and distract the U.S. And, the EU is kidding themselves if they think we can't beat them in an arms race.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 11:39 pm
Lash wrote:
Yep. Probably a lot to some of Timber's points...

Our admin has not changed.

Europe is falling over themselves as if it was an entirely different group of people in DC.

They have a motive. Looking forward to finding out what it is.... Dollars in Iraqi construction... ?
Ah, well.... we'll see.


What? It's Condi and Rummy over in Europe on the charm offensive, not the other way round....isn't it?

Either way, and deferring to nimh's more thoughtful post, it's time to be constructive and work with the material to hand.

"A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones together."
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 11:44 pm
Lash - I'm not totally sure I believe the MSM that China is struggling internally and that things there will only get worse.

There are accounts of others (mainly people who've visited there numerous times recently) who report improvement in infrastructure and other signs that speak to government officials understanding what economic growth requires.

China, within the next decade or so, will become a power to be reckoned with, or well on its way.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 08:22 am
Lash wrote:
Wonder what's going on re China...? What led you to make your statement?

This may be some of the background of the long-term concern America may need to consider re: China:

(translated from Dutch, sorry for errors)

Quote:
The awaking Chinese giant is a country where the econnomy managed to reach a fabulous average growth of 10% per year for the past twentyfive years. [..] The economy of China is tightly interwoven with those of the rest of the world. As a nation, China annually saves 40% of its GDP, America no more than 2%. A lot of those savings the Chinese government invests in the purchase of American securities. In the first nine months of 2004 alone China bought American government bonds to the amount of 180 billion dollar. If China would stop ever again investing hundreds of billions of dollars in American securities, the American economy would probably collapse. It is after all thanks to the Chinese and Japanese investments that the American government and the American consumers can still afford to live generously beyond their budget. Much of the money it lends out China earns back through American purchases of cheap Chinese products. The country at the end of 2003 was the fourt trade nation in the world, after America, Germany and Japan. China in the first ten months of 2004 had a trade surplus with America, according to US numbers, of 131 billion dollars.

Since it opened itself in the late seventies China has attracted over 500 billion dollas in investments from abroad, while India succeeded in attracting less than a tenth of that amoount. It has thus grown to be the factory floor of the world. The earned capital is now invested in ever greater scale also in Chinese business investments overseas.

(That was from the Magazine of the NRC Handelsblad)

I think in the long term China will take over from the US as the top dog. Dont know whether it'll be in my lifetime, but eventually - unless its growing pains escalate and uprisings take the country down in flames.

The EU will remain in third place at best throughout.
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