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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Setanta
 
  4  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2020 08:05 am
Oralloy alleges that there has been "cherry-picking" of data, but he doesn't say what data, nor does he name the names of those involved in this putative deceit. It's about the same as that other joker who alleged that I had linked something from a climate change denier, and waxed all pompous, lecturing me--but not quoting the part of the narrative which denied that the climate is changing. That's because the author does not deny that the climate is changing. These three individuals are just looking for an argument, but none of them have a substantive argument.
Olivier5
 
  4  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2020 08:24 am
@oralloy,
Oh you mean some ten-year-old controversy about one single article is all you've got?

Millions of papers have been published since. Look at the forest, not at the tree.
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2020 11:42 am
@oralloy,
Snowpack is in fact declining. No cherry picking. No suppression of data. Just an oralloy/ denialist red herring. From the respected scientific journal "Nature"
Quote:
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Article
Open Access
Published: 02 March 2018
Dramatic declines in snowpack in the western US
Philip W. Mote

, Sihan Li, Dennis P. Lettenmaier, Mu Xiao & Ruth Engel
npj Climate and Atmospheric Science
volume
1, Article number: 2 (2018) Cite this article
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details
Abstract
Mountain snowpack stores a significant quantity of water in the western US, accumulating during the wet season and melting during the dry summers and supplying much of the water used for irrigated agriculture, and municipal and industrial uses. Updating our earlier work published in 2005, we find that with 14 additional years of data, over 90% of snow monitoring sites with long records across the western US now show declines, of which 33% are significant (vs. 5% expected by chance) and 2% are significant and positive (vs. 5% expected by chance). Declining trends are observed across all months, states, and climates, but are largest in spring, in the Pacific states, and in locations with mild winter climate. We corroborate and extend these observations using a gridded hydrology model, which also allows a robust estimate of total western snowpack and its decline. We find a large increase in the fraction of locations that posted decreasing trends, and averaged across the western US, the decline in average April 1 snow water equivalent since mid-century is roughly 15–30% or 25–50 km3, comparable in volume to the West’s largest man-made reservoir, Lake Mead.
Introduction
California’s recent multi-year drought (2011–16) and its extension into Oregon and Washington has shown that warming can create drought simply by preventing the accumulation of mountain snowpack. The year 2015, for instance, set the record low 1 April snow water equivalent (SWE) at over 80% of sites west of 117° longitude,1 a result of high winter temperatures rather than low precipitation.2,3,4
More than a decade ago, we showed that spring snowpack had declined at a large majority of locations in the mountainous western US, and corroborated the observations with hydrologic modeling that reached broadly similar conclusions.5 We also noted that computing an area-averaged snowpack value from observations is challenging because the locations of long-term monitoring sites are usually chosen to favor a certain type of terrain and elevational range, with temperature-sensitive locations undersampled early in the record in some states.6 Methodological choices (e.g., about record length) can therefore strongly influence results and must be carefully evaluated. In contrast, model-based estimates provide a basis for estimating long-term SWE changes across the entire Western U.S. domain.
Since our earlier work, several papers have further explored the relationships between mountain snowpack, variability and trends in precipitation and temperature, and geographically important factors. Stoelinga et al. (ref. 7) derived a snowpack index for the Cascades from streamflow measurements, from which they estimated that the spring snowpack declined 23% between 1930 and 2007. Pierce et al. (ref. 8) using a hydrologic model forced by observations and by two 1600-year climate model runs to estimate natural internal climate variability, attributed declines in snowpack (specifically SWE divided by accumulation-season precipitation) across the western US to anthropogenic warming.
Luce et al. (ref. 9) postulated that decreases in westerly winds aloft may have contributed to orographically induced decreases in high-elevation precipitation and snowpack in the Northwest, which the sparse high-elevation observations might not detect. Our previous work found little to no decrease at high elevations, but large decreases at low elevations,5,10 whereas their mechanism would produce the opposite. Nonetheless, the wind-induced changes join other factors besides direct anthropogenic warming in potentially influencing regional snowpack.
Changes in vegetation cover in or near snow courses, as well as station moves, could lead to spurious or non-climatic trends. Unfortunately, scant evidence is available about changes in vegetation over time at snow course locations. In a rare exception, Julander and Bricco (ref.11) compare recent photographs of snow courses in Utah with photographs from 1936, noting that in some locations there was no change in vegetation while in others there was a complete transformation owing, e.g., to logging or fire. Such changes have been shown to affect significantly the accumulation and ablation rates, and could be as large as climate-driven trends. Julander and Clayton (ref. 12) in a study of 15 Utah snow courses (all but one at >2200 m elevation) noted that SW
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2020 11:48 am
@MontereyJack,

Dramatic declines in snowpack in the western US | npj ...
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41612-018-0012-1
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2020 12:46 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Germany's harvest of "ice wine" (a rather sweetdessert wine produced from grapes that have frozen while still on the vin) has failed for the first time ever because the winter has been too warm.

"The 2019 vintage will go down in history here in Germany as the first year in which the ice harvest has failed nationwide," the German Wine Institute (DWI) said in a statement.

"If the warm winters continue in the next few years, ice wines from German wine regions will soon become even more of a rarity than they already are," said Ernst Büscher from the DWI.

Another problem for ice wine production is that, in recent years, the dates for a possible ice harvest have shifted later - to January and February - while the grapes are ripening earlier, the DWI said.
As a result, the grapes need to survive for longer.

Press release DWI

It is nationalist to say what I'm about to say, but many people think in terms of national collective responsibility for climate change. The U.S., for example, has a higher per capita rate of driving/parking than the E.U., so some people blame the U.S. disproportionately for climate change, even though you could say that the U.S. has been groomed to drive so much to make it lucrative at the global level.

What I was going to say about Germany is that many of the advances in science and engineering that have made global industrialism into a climate threat came from Germany in one way or another, and while progress in science and technology are good in many ways, and certainly they are key in developing new technologies and ways of living that are sustainable and compatible with natural climate, I don't think you can look at German ice wine production as a victim of climate change without thinking about how it is also a cultural tradition that has been intertwined with the scientific and technological developments that have caused climate change.

Maybe what I'm saying here is superfluous, just as it would be superfluous to tell someone posting about climate change causing more fires in California that California's prosperity has been tied to U.S. economic development, which has played a role in causing the climate change that is affecting California, but I think we have to look at history and the many interwoven causes of climate change and other global problems without making the mistake of dividing the world in collective victims and perpetrators while ignoring the deeper complexities of how reality actually works at the micro-level of actual cause and effect.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2020 09:00 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Not a big fan of wine in general, but I do like ice wine. Potent argument right there to get serious about co2 emissions.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 03:36 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
Snowpack is in fact declining.

Sorry. I'm just not interested in conclusions derived from cherry-picked data.


MontereyJack wrote:
No cherry picking.

When scientific journals suppress data that is inconvenient to their preferred narrative, that is cherry picking.


MontereyJack wrote:
No suppression of data.

When scientific journals block the publication of data that is inconvenient to their preferred narrative, that is suppression.


MontereyJack wrote:
Just an oralloy/ denialist red herring.

The fact that we cannot trust conclusions derived from cherry-picked data is not a red herring.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 03:39 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Oh you mean some ten-year-old controversy about one single article is all you've got?

You were equally dismissive of the fact that climate journals are suppressing inconvenient data ten years ago when the articles were fresh.


Olivier5 wrote:
Millions of papers have been published since. Look at the forest, not at the tree.

There is no reason to trust any of those papers. There has clearly been no effort to stop the suppression of inconvenient data.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 03:41 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Oralloy alleges that there has been "cherry-picking" of data, but he doesn't say what data, nor does he name the names of those involved in this putative deceit.

What are you talking about? I've provided reputable links to concrete allegations over and over and over again for years now.

Here is a post from this very thread where I provided those links eight years ago:
https://able2know.org/topic/44061-850#post-4895195

Here is a post from this very thread where I provided those links yesterday:
https://able2know.org/topic/44061-938#post-6966556
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 04:08 am
@oralloy,
You can't generalize anything from one single event, so your point is easily dismissed.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 04:21 am
@Olivier5,
Your unreliable claims based on cherry-picked data are easily dismissed.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 04:25 am
@oralloy,
Nobody believes your lies here.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 04:32 am
@Olivier5,
You cannot provide any examples of anything that is untrue in any of my posts.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 04:35 am
https://dailytorch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Glacier-Denial-DT-990.jpg
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 04:36 am
@oralloy,
I just did. You have attention deficit disorder?
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 04:40 am
@Olivier5,
No you didn't.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 04:41 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
It's you who are wrong,

Nope. I'm not wrong about anything.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 04:51 am
@oralloy,
Look closely at this post, in which I am pointing at your lie:
https://able2know.org/topic/44061-938#post-6966551

oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 04:55 am
@Olivier5,
The truth isn't a lie, and everything in my post is true. The cherry picking and suppression of facts has been exposed for all to see.

I do realize that the truth is inconvenient for the left. But that doesn't make the truth wrong.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 06:47 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
The cherry picking and suppression of facts has been exposed for all to see.
Apparently, those who see it that way have the one or other screw loose due to the effects of climate change.
One feels sorry for these poor people!
 

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