Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

Right wing logic = military intelligence

Anon

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I think his remark is being somewhat or maybe a lot mischaracterized.

As far as I could follow, the speech had been written and re-written a couple of times.

Your objection leads me to the conclusion that either no-one notoced that or that it was done exactly for that purpose, namely to calm the foreigners and to confuse the own folk :wink:

As far as I could follow, the President did not elaborate on what he meant by the phrase, which prompted my comment that I do not know what he meant by the phrase and thus neither does anybody else not given the explanation know what he meant by the phrase. I, however, have listened to him for enough years now to believe that his remarks are probably being mischaracterized.

Therefore, your conclusions, so far as I can follow, are baseless. Or do you have some crystal ball that conclusively deciphers a person's unstated intent?

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If we're only talking about Bush's "America is addicted to oil", I have to say that I can't be bothered to interpret this one way or the other. I think it is far more interesting what Bush then went on to say.

I've already pointed out that I'm quite happy that the President announced an increase (of 22%!) in clean-energy research, that he made a commitment to zero-emission energy sources, that he promoted solar and wind technologies and that he also spoke in favor of a development towards pollution-free cars that run on hydrogen.

I have to say that I find his goal to "replace more than 75 percent of our oil imports from the Middle East by 2025" somewhat ambitious. Especially so as his plans seem to be to do so by replacing the oil with alternative/renewable resources:

Quote:

By applying the talent and technology of America, this country can dramatically improve our environment, move beyond a petroleum-based economy, and make our dependence on Middle Eastern oil a thing of the past.

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No quarrel with that OE. I don't have any problem at all with the game plan. I just think people can't accuse him of flipflopping on his opinion on these subjects without knowing what he actually meant by the "addiction to oil" phrase. As I posted a page or two back, this could mean one or all of several things, but I don't think it should be interpreted that he's buying into the Kyoto protocol or something like that.

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It's foolish to speculate on what he meant by our "addiction to oil," because it doesn't mean a damned thing. Anyone who persists in calling for drilling in the Alaskan wilderness clearly has no concern at all about stopping the addiction to oil.

Actions, as they say, speak louder than words...

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old europe wrote:

If we're only talking about Bush's "America is addicted to oil", I have to say that I can't be bothered to interpret this one way or the other. I think it is far more interesting what Bush then went on to say.

I've already pointed out that I'm quite happy that the President announced an increase (of 22%!) in clean-energy research, that he made a commitment to zero-emission energy sources, that he promoted solar and wind technologies and that he also spoke in favor of a development towards pollution-free cars that run on hydrogen.................

Uummm.... Our cars are going to run on hydrogen? Hydrogen can't be mined it has to be produced at cost vastly exceeding gasoline and oh by the way anybody recalls the airship "Hindenburg"???

At this point I'm just looking in at this thread for comic relief, sorry!!!

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Well, according to my son, the process of producing usable hydrogen is also currently more polluting and energy costly than producing the equivalent gasoline, but that doesn't mean they won't develop technology to solve that problem.

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D'artagnan wrote:

It's foolish to speculate on what he meant by our "addiction to oil," because it doesn't mean a damned thing. Anyone who persists in calling for drilling in the Alaskan wilderness clearly has no concern at all about stopping the addiction to oil.

Actions, as they say, speak louder than words...

But if you listened to or read the transcript of his speech you would know that he made no mention of drilling in Alaska as a solution.

Secondly, there is nothing mutually exclusive between kicking the oil habit and drilling for oil in Alaska.

A great many experts on addiction do not favor the "cold turkey" approach.

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Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

D'artagnan wrote:
It's foolish to speculate on what he meant by our "addiction to oil," because it doesn't mean a damned thing. Anyone who persists in calling for drilling in the Alaskan wilderness clearly has no concern at all about stopping the addiction to oil.

Actions, as they say, speak louder than words...

But if you listened to or read the transcript of his speech you would know that he made no mention of drilling in Alaska as a solution.

Secondly, there is nothing mutually exclusive between kicking the oil habit and drilling for oil in Alaska.

A great many experts on addiction do not favor the "cold turkey" approach.

Finn,

"Cold Turkey" ain't gonna get it anyway. I just don't think changing things has really been pursued very diligently.

Anon

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Anon-Voter wrote:

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
D'artagnan wrote:
It's foolish to speculate on what he meant by our "addiction to oil," because it doesn't mean a damned thing. Anyone who persists in calling for drilling in the Alaskan wilderness clearly has no concern at all about stopping the addiction to oil.

Actions, as they say, speak louder than words...

But if you listened to or read the transcript of his speech you would know that he made no mention of drilling in Alaska as a solution.

Secondly, there is nothing mutually exclusive between kicking the oil habit and drilling for oil in Alaska.

A great many experts on addiction do not favor the "cold turkey" approach.

Finn,

"Cold Turkey" ain't gonna get it anyway. I just don't think changing things has really been pursued very diligently.

Anon

If you do not subscribe to a "Cold Turkey" approach than it is difficult to imagine how you might not be in favor of drilling in Alaska.

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Drilling in Alaska isn't a solution ... it's not even a good band-aid. I'm skeptical of the actual reserves there. I think the oil companies want to drill there because if they can bust the resistance to that, the coastlines, national parks, and public land are goung to be next. Not only next, but much easier.

At first, I thought Bush was really going into Iraq for WMD's. When that became obviously bogus, I thought we were going in to take the oil. Now I wonder if it wasn't more about shutting it off. The current "oil crises" sure makes drilling in all those environmental sanctuaries much more appealing now, doesn't it!!

Anon

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Foxfyre wrote:

Well, according to my son, the process of producing usable hydrogen is also currently more polluting and energy costly than producing the equivalent gasoline, but that doesn't mean they won't develop technology to solve that problem.

The goal is to produce hydrogen from renewable energy sources such as wind or solar power, biomass (plant material), and even water. Will take some time.

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Duh. People are really misinformed on the hydrogen issue.................

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old europe wrote:

Duh. People are really misinformed on the hydrogen issue.................

You think so? My son works with people who make the stuff.

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Foxfyre wrote:

My son works with people who make the stuff.

Even the U.S. National Hydrogen Association told the U.S. Senate (already in 2003)

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Was more referring to Louise's post.

I am quite sure that producing hydrogen is, at the moment, more energy costly than producing the equivalent gasoline. The difference is of course, that you have a whole gasoline industry in place, whereas hydrogen is still produced on a laboratory level. More or less.

Nevertheless, I seriously doubt the fact that it is more polluting. Certainly, depending on the method (algae, or natural gas, or landfill gas, ...) you get various byproducts. But unless you just vent them into the atmosphere, there shouldn't be a problem at all.

Of course, in the long run the method of choice would be to use solar power in order to convert ionised water into hydrogen through the process of electrolysis. Because all you do is basically split water (H2O) into hydrogen (H) and oxygen (O).

And re Louise's insightful comment on the Hindenburg: of course a mixture of hydrogen (as a gas) and oxygen (as a gas) is highly explosive. But pure hydrogen can be stored quite safely. Plus you wouldn't want to store it in gas form, but compress it to have liquid hydrogen. Can be done either through extremely low temperatures or pressure.

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And just for the sake of it, as some people seem to believe all of this is science fiction, I have to post this picture:

As I said a couple of pages back on this thread: I live quite near a BMW facility, so I quite frequently see their hydrogen cars in the streets. So don't tell me it can't be done.

Very Happy

They even have hydrogen powered Mini now.... I love the Mini!

And they went on a world tour to promote their hydrogen cars. Have a look at it here. Some nice pictures there....

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I believe the essential difficulty for hydrogen use is the production of the greater quantity of energy required to separate the strong bonds hydrogen creates with other elements than is yielded when it is burned as a fuel. As Walter noted the pollution occurs at the poinjht of production, not consumption.

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old europe wrote:

They even have hydrogen powered Mini now.... I love the Mini!

Since I live near the factory where they produce its light system(s), I saw not only the hybrid Mini but with a different light system as well Laughing

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

old europe wrote:
They even have hydrogen powered Mini now.... I love the Mini!

Since I live near the factory where they produce its light system(s), I saw not only the hybrid Mini but with a different light system as well

bugger.

<hmmmm. The Mini>

http://www.bmwworld.com/images/cars/mini/hydrogen.gif

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