Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

old europe wrote:

bugger.

Bazi.

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Hey!

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Yes, guys. Nobody is saying that hydrogen doesn't burn efficiently and clean. The problem now is that it is more polluting, more clostly both in $$$ to make it and in energy consumption to make it than is required to produce the equivolent gasoline. There is nothing to be gained if you have more pollution and use up more energy from the manufacturing process than you have in the consumption process.

Humans generally manage to do what they have to do, however, and we'll surely develop the technology to cleanly produce hydrogen unless a better energy source is developed in the interim, but whatever we do is going to take some time.

Meanwhile, you don't put the economies of oil-dependent nations on hold in the interim.

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old europe wrote:

Hey!

You started, and if you don't stop I'll tell it your parents!

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Foxfyre wrote:

The problem now is that it is more polluting

Foxy,

I challenge you to find a source that says that producing hydrogen (obviously we are only talking about the production side now) is more polluting than producing gasoline.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

old europe wrote:
Hey!

You started, and if you don't stop I'll tell it your parents!

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old europe wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
The problem now is that it is more polluting

Foxy,

I challenge you to find a source that says that producing hydrogen (obviously we are only talking about the production side now) is more polluting than producing gasoline.

I don't have one. I am reporting what my son (a petroleum and mechanical engineer who works with people who produce both gasoline and hydrogen) tells me. But it takes energy to produce electricity or if a plant is operating on petroleum and/or natural gas and it requires a whole lot of either to produce hydrogen, it is not difficult to believe that the production of hydrogen using current technology could be a problem.

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Foxfyre wrote:

we'll surely develop the technology to cleanly produce hydrogen unless a better energy source is developed in the interim, but whatever we do is going to take some time.

You know, when I arrive here at the airport, there are hydrogen powered commuter buses. There's a hydrogen "gas station", and there's quite a number of hydrogen cars to be seen.

I think that hydrogen is definitely the future. Meanwhile, hybrid cars a nice and efficient interim solution, but hydrogen is the future.

And I'm happy that President Bush is with me on that one. Very Happy

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I did find this discussion of the benefits and problems with hydrogen fuels produced by Stanford University:

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/hydrogen.html

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Foxfyre wrote:

old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
The problem now is that it is more polluting

Foxy,

I challenge you to find a source that says that producing hydrogen (obviously we are only talking about the production side now) is more polluting than producing gasoline.

I don't have one. I am reporting what my son (a petroleum and mechanical engineer who works with people who produce both gasoline and hydrogen) tells me. But it takes energy to produce electricity or if a plant is operating on petroleum and/or natural gas and it requires a whole lot of either to produce hydrogen, it is not difficult to believe that the production of hydrogen using current technology could be a problem.

Foxy, if you're saying that producing hydrogen takes a lot of energy - yes, that's true. On the other hand, producing gasoline is quite an effort, too. Just because all the facilities are already in place doesn't mean they are for free. Just think of oil rigs, supertankers, refineries etc. Billions of dollars, Foxy.

I'm pretty sure that if you would invest the same amount of money into hydrogen production, prices would go down to the point where it'd be cheaper than gasoline.

But then, what I thought you were saying was that hydrogen production is more polluting (or, for that matter, polluting) than gasoline production. Which it is not.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I did find this discussion of the benefits and problems with hydrogen fuels produced by Stanford University:

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/hydrogen.html

Yes, interesting article. By a student, I presume. But nicely sums up the facts...

Nope.

He's a professor of computer science...

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Foxfyre wrote:

I did find this discussion of the benefits and problems with hydrogen fuels produced by Stanford University:

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/hydrogen.html

It's the privat page of a member of the "Formal Reasoning Group " at Stanford ("The formal reasoning group focuses on the analysis and development of formal reasoning in artificial intelligence.")

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Merci bien, Walter!

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Sooo......

Maybe you people can explain me how this all of a sudden came about:

Quote:

Evangelical Christians launch campaign on limiting emissions

BY FRANK JAMES
Chicago Tribune

WASHINGTON - A group of evangelical Christian leaders kicked off a national campaign Wednesday to urge Congress to pass legislation to limit carbon-dioxide emissions, contending that decreasing the human role in global warming was central to putting faith into action.

The evangelical leaders said they were acting not just out of a sense of stewardship for the Earth as God's creation but also out of concern for the poor who are most often the hardest hit by hurricanes, floods and other natural disasters linked to climate change.

Through a national advertising campaign using television, radio and the print media - including an ad running in Thursday's New York Times with a statement signed by 86 of the Christian leaders - the evangelicals said they hoped to further the growing momentum for environmentalism within many churches.

[...]

Not that it's a specifically new thing. The whole idea, I mean. In Europe, environmentalism and Christian faith always seemed to go together quite naturally.

But of course, the Evangelists are a completely different breed. Nevertheless, good idea to urge the administration to support limits on U.S. carbon-dioxide emissions....

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old europe wrote:

Not that it's a specifically new thing. The whole idea, I mean. In Europe, environmentalism and Christian faith always seemed to go together quite naturally.

But of course, the Evangelists are a completely different breed.

Exactly - the most active are in some regions - like where I live - the Evangelical and (a little bit less, because only the more younger are really active) Catholic groups.

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In the US, there is a wide swath of the evangelical community which is organizationally tied into the Republican party structure including regular strategy meetings with Karl Rove and the Grover Norquist group, lots of exchange of personnel, etc. It's a relationship that goes back a couple of decades fostered by the RNC to increase their voter base. Several key figures involved are Pat Robertson and James Dobson (both of whom are in opposition to the evangelical groups working to acknowledge and extablish policies to fight global warming, along with Chuck Colson, former Nixon lawyer who spent time in jail for crimes committed in that administration) and Ralph Reed who took over leadership of the Christian Coalition from Robertson and who worked for the Bush re-election campaign and is an old College Republican associate of Norquist, Rove and Abramoff (and who is presently linked in with the Abramoff scandal).

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old europe wrote:

Not that it's a specifically new thing. The whole idea, I mean. In Europe, environmentalism and Christian faith always seemed to go together quite naturally.

But of course, the Evangelists are a completely different breed. Nevertheless, good idea to urge the administration to support limits on U.S. carbon-dioxide emissions....

How well are the European signatories of the Kyoto treaty doing in meeting their own self-imposed limits? Not well from what I read.

Why does Europe have such a great attraction for words and documents while continuing such an adversion to constructive action ?

Why hasn't the In ternational Criminal Court stopped the slaughter in Sudan??

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georgeob1 wrote:

Why hasn't the International Criminal Court stopped the slaughter in Sudan??

I don't know what this has to do with global warming, but I do know that you either never followed the links given by a couple of posters and read those on websites, what the International Criminal Court is and how it works ... or something else is wrong.

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I made three points. If you will think about them together, I'm sure you will see the connection.

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George, you will notice that I haven't mentioned the Kyoto treaty for quite some time. We can certainly go back to the discussion whether Kyoto makes sense or not. I, personally, would rather have a treaty that has nations working towards reducing their CO2 emissions than not. Of course Kyoto has flaws. China is exempted. So is India. And the world's largest polluter didn't even join (another flaw of Kyoto, in my opinion).

You ask why Europe has such a great attraction for words and documents. I'd say that the answer is Europe's recent history. Especially continental Europe has always suffered from one war or another. People were caught up between war-mongering powers. France. Napoleon. Prussia. The Habsburgs. Russia. Go back and check when Europe, almost all of Europe, has enjoyed peace and considerable wealth for such an extended amount of time as it has since the end of WWII. (And yes, probably the more true for "Old Europe", butyaknow...) So if you ask me why Europeans are so enamored with words and documents, I'd answer: because that's what appears to work for them.

Why hasn't the ICC stopped slaughter in Sudan? Because it's a court, right? I don't know why you bring this up. Why haven't the US stopped the slaughter in Sudan? Duh.

I'm not sure if the answered your questions. But whenever you feel like it, George, we can go back to the topic at hand.

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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

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