4
   

What, exactly, is the rationale for establishing "sanctuary cities?"

 
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 09:28 am
@layman,
Noam Chomsky, the anarcho-communist who is a prominent, glorified hero to the Left, also articulated this commie view for the benefit of his followers:

Noam Chomsky wrote:
"I don’t accept the view that we can just condemn the NLF terror, period, because it was so horrible.

There are real arguments also in favor of the Viet Cong terror, arguments that can't be lightly dismissed.”

"It was necessary to break the bonds of passivity that made them totally incapable of political action. And if violence does move the peasantry to the point where it can overcome bondage, then I think there's a pretty strong case for it."

“If it were true that the consequences of not using terror would be that the peasantry in Vietnam would continue to live in the state of the peasantry of the Philippines, then I think the use of terror would be justified.”


http://www.chomsky.info/debates/19671215.htm
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 09:50 am
@layman,
Quote:
It figures that you would wholeheartedly embrace the Marxist and Trotskyite position here, sho nuff.


To be fair, I should note that this is not strictly a Marxist view. It is adopted and promoted by extremists of every stripe, everywhere. It is the fundamental position taken by the KKK and Hitler's Nazi Party just as much as it is of groups like La Raza, BLM, and every other variation of tribalistic "identity politics."
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 11:30 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
I don't care who they cheer for or how patriotic they are.


This attitude is an extremely serious problems that Americans are confronted with. Anyone who would go to the capitol of a foreign nation, with whom the U.S. is at war, and proclaim that he was cheering for their victory while condemning the U. S., would be considered a traitor by the average American.

But that's what Chomsky did, and he is a cult hero amongst leftists. Loyalty to the country is not only something they don't "care" about, it's something they appear to despise.

Noam Chomsky, in Hanoi while he was visiting North Vietnam, in a statement broadcast by Radio Hanoi on April 14, 1970, wrote:
"This is my first visit to Vietnam. Nevertheless, since the moment when we arrived at the airport at Hanoi, I've had a remarkable and very satisfying feeling of being entirely at home...

The people of Vietnam will win, they must win, because your cause is the cause of humanity as it moves forward toward liberty and justice, toward the socialist society in which free, creative men control their own destiny.”

"We are deeply grateful to you that you permit us to be part of your brave and historical struggle....being Americans who wish you success and who detest with all of their being the hateful activities of the American government."


Chomsky has spent a whole career doing his absolute best to seditiously undermine the U.S. from within, all to the cheers of leftists. Leftists want more like him, such as La Raza and Mecha, and they wholeheartedly approve of his affiliation with whatever foreign nation (or group, like radical muslims) the U.S. might be opposing at any given moment. Or, for that matter, any country which opposes the U.S., even if the U.S. is indifferent to them.

Normal Americans do not want any such people, whose stated goal is to overthrow the U.S. government, wreaking havoc in the U.S., much less MORE of them.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 12:05 pm
@maxdancona,
I stake out my position with every post I write.

I don't need to juxtapose it with layman's.

Your reason for discontinuing this silly line of argument is to remain focused on the issue and respond to my staked out position...should you actually care to.

maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 02:21 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I have seen you stake out any position Finn. Layman saying some awfully ugly things on this thread. He is running your side of the discussion. I haven't seen you state any position that differentiates you from him...

The basic argument Layman is making here is

1. Mexicans, including American citizens of Mexican descent are a threat to America and will betray the United States. A president of Mexican descent would carve up the country based on ethnicity.

2. People who support immigrants are Nazi's, the KKK and Islamic terrorists all rolled up into one ball with Noam Chomsky and any idiot with brown skin on the internet. There is no difference between prominent Hispanic civil rights groups and the KKK.

3. Americans who disagree with the ideology that Layman has espoused are traitors, and cities should be "beaten down" with "tanks".

There was a little discussion about whether local police departments should be forced to enforce federal law. This discussion got a little traction, and Brandon is the one poster who seems reasonable on this topic. The rest of this thread has been swamped with ethnic bashing and the claims that any American who disagrees with Trump is a traitor.

Tell me, on which of these points do you disagree with Layman? On at least a couple of posts you have specifically defended him. This is a ridiculous thread with ridiculous claims including some pretty ugly ethnic slurs. You aren't jumping in, but you aren't willing to call it out either. When someone who agrees with me on a topic starts using ethnic slurs to argue their case, I call them out on it. If I don't, then I am in tacit agreement with them because I am on their side. I expect the same from your side.

You can't be shoulder to shoulder with someone shouting ugly slurs without being associated with him.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 02:28 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I see what you are saying Brandon. You are saying that the principles that apply to one side should also apply to the other. I agree with that principle. I don't want to quibble with words... but "principled" (which is what you are talking about here) is not the same as "moral" or "ethical". You are suggesting that I am not being "principled".

My morality is based on core values, my sense of what is right and wrong. It has nothing to do with legal, or political principles. It has to do with my sense that deporting people, breaking families, ruining lives is morally wrong, and that protecting people is the morally right thing to do.

I think you are oversimplifying the legal principles. Each case is different and judges write pages and pages explaining why they rule one way in one case and a different way on another.

But, I will be honest. My moral sense of right and wrong is far more important to than legal principles, and as such, I will push whatever legal principles in court that I can and use whatever political power I have in service of my sense of morality. That's how democracy works. I am glad we have courts that are supposed to make balanced impartial rulings on legal principles. That has nothing to do with morality.

I accept that morality is viewed differently by different people. Let's be honest, it is a difference in core values... what it means to be American and what America should mean that is at the center of this argument.



Brandon, I would like to hear your response to this post. Of course I accept this goes both ways. People who are morally opposed to abortion do the same thing... and on principle it works the same way.
layman
 
  -4  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 02:33 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
My morality is based on core values, my sense of what is right and wrong. It has nothing to do with legal, or political principles. It has to do with my sense that deporting people, breaking families, ruining lives is morally wrong, and that protecting people is the morally right thing to do.


You didn't ask for my response, Max, which I have actually partially given already, but I'll tell you anyway.

That statement sums up pretty well the reason why you can only be considered to be a hard-core cheese eater.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 03:23 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Layman saying some awfully ugly things on this thread.


Look again, Max. What I have done is simply REPEAT what Mexicans (usually as reported by left-wing outlets) themselves say. You don't like hearing it. I can understand that. Much of it is indeed "ugly." But I aint the one who said them.

And, to repeat, I do not quote or rely on "right wing websites" to get an understanding of the relevant law. I rely on the actual words of the constitution, as clarified by supreme (and appellate) court cases, and I quote from them, not "websites."

For historical facts, I quote reputable historians. You don't like acknowledging history either. It can be "ugly," I'll concede that, but....
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 04:30 pm
@layman,
Just kinda for the hell of it, here's a brief summary of U.S-Mexican relations during the 25 years following Mexico's gaining independence from Spain in 1821, courtesy of wiki:

Quote:
After its Treaty of Córdoba, thereby obtaining independence in 1821 from the Kingdom of Spain and its Spanish Empire, having been known as New Spain for the preceding 300 years, and after a brief experiment with monarchy, Mexico became a republic in 1824. It was characterized by considerable instability, leaving it ill-prepared for international conflict only two decades later, when war broke out in 1846.

Native American raids in Mexico's sparsely settled north in the decades preceding the war prompted the Mexican government to sponsor migration from the U.S. on its northeast border to the Mexican province of Texas to create a buffer.

However, the newly-named "Texians" revolted against the Mexican government of President/dictator Antonio López de Santa Ana, who had usurped the Mexican Constitution of 1824, in the subsequent 1836 Texas Revolution, creating a republic not recognized by Mexico.

In 1845, the Texan Republic agreed to an offer of annexation by the U.S. Congress, and became the 28th state in the Union on December 29 that year.

[That same year] Mexican forces attacked an American Army outpost ("Thornton Affair") in the occupied territory, killing 12 U.S. soldiers and capturing 52. These same Mexican troops later laid siege to an American fort along the Rio Grande. Polk cited this attack as a so-called invasion of U.S. territory, and requested that the Congress declare war.

The U.S. Army, under the command of Major General Winfield Scott, after several fierce battles of stiff resistance from the Mexican Army outside of the capital, Mexico City, eventually captured the city.

The 1848 Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, forced onto the remnant Mexican government, ended the war and specified its major consequence, the Mexican Cession of the northern territories of Alta California and Santa Fe de Nuevo México to the United States.

The U.S. agreed to pay $15 million compensation for the physical damage of the war. In addition, the United States assumed $3.25 million of debt already owed earlier by the Mexican government to U.S. citizens.

Mexico acknowledged the loss of their province, later Republic of Texas (and now State of Texas), and thereafter cited and acknowledged the Rio Grande as its future northern national border with the United States. Mexico had lost over one-third of its original territory from its 1821 independence.

The military defeat and loss of territory was a disastrous blow, causing Mexico to enter "a period of self-examination... as its leaders sought to identify and address the reasons that had led to such a debacle."

In the immediate aftermath of the war, some prominent Mexicans wrote that the war had resulted in "the state of degradation and ruin" in Mexico, further claiming, for "the true origin of the war, it is sufficient to say that the insatiable ambition of the United States, favored by our weakness, caused it."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War

There's a whole lot more there, which I'll ignore for now. But here's the gist of what's been said so far. Mexico was known only as part of "New Spain" prior to 1821. There was disputed territory in what is now the Southwest U.S., inhabited primarily by native americans (not spaniards).

After starting a war over it, and getting its sorry ass kicked, Spain actually got paid to end the whole sorry affair, when they really had no choice. Maybe we should have remained in Mexico City, which we had conquered, and have kept the whole country, but that's a different issue. At the time we just wanted a peaceful co-existence, free from future Mexican attacks along the border.

But like Germany (and Hitler) and Democrats after Clinton lost, the Mexicans were never truly willing to acknowledge that they got their asses whupped. They have basically considered the land lost by the 1848 treaty to still be theirs. Their resentment over foreigners living on "their" land since 1848 has not disappeared (or even abated much) in the 170 years since that war ended.

In other posts I have summarized the extreme antipathy of most Mexicans have help toward Americans ever since. Like democrats with Trump, they are constantly dreaming of ways to dispose Trump and re-assert themselves in power (reconquista).

We don't want ANY people whose loyalties are owed to another country coming into American illegally (any more than we did the Germans who came ashore from submarines during WWII). But the last ones we want are those who hate non-Mexican U.S. citizens (gringos) , and who want to overthrow the U.S. Mexican illegals are NOT Americans, and few of them have any desire to become "Americans."

The number of Mexican citizens illegally living in the U.S. has reached staggering proportions, to the point that they now virtually control the whole State of California. Given their "political" clout, they can pass laws which will, if unchecked, allow tens of millions more Mexican citizens to just stroll on in, in preparation for (and in cooperation with Mexico in) the ultimate retaking of "their land,"

Hightor "doesn't care" who they affirm loyalty to, and you, Max, seem to go a step further. You seem to think it's a great benefit that there are hostile Mexicans who illegally reside in our country, and want to see more of them come in.

Well, unfortunately for you, Trump don't play dat.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 04:50 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Native American raids in Mexico's sparsely settled north in the decades preceding the war prompted the Mexican government to sponsor migration from the U.S. on its northeast border to the Mexican province of Texas to create a buffer.

However, the newly-named "Texians" revolted against the Mexican government of President/dictator Antonio López de Santa Ana, who had usurped the Mexican Constitution of 1824, in the subsequent 1836 Texas Revolution, creating a republic not recognized by Mexico.


From history alone, we should have learned the lesson that Mexico learned way back in 1836 from "Texians," i.e., Best not to invite a bunch of foreign citizens into "your" land because you think you have a good use for them. They aint gunna owe you no loyalty, and will reject your dominion as soon as they get well-established enough to kick your ass.

Although Mexico likes to pretend that the southwest U. S., was "their land," in truth they never occupied, and could never controlled it. They couldn't hold it against a few Texans. They NEVER would have been able to take actual control from the Apaches and all the other southwestern tribes who actually occupied the land (and claimed it was theirs).

All they ever had was a piece of paper from Spain "saying" it was theirs, and that supposed "ownership" didn't last more than an historical blink of an eye.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 05:21 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Although Mexico likes to pretend that the southwest U. S., was "their land," in truth they never occupied, and could never controlled it. They couldn't hold it against a few Texans. They NEVER would have been able to take actual control from the Apaches and all the other southwestern tribes who actually occupied the land (and claimed it was theirs)


Like it says here:

Quote:
The Comanche were particularly successful in expanding their territory in the Comanche–Mexico Wars and garnering resources. The Apache–Mexico Wars also made Mexico's north a violent place, with no effective political control.

The Apache raids left thousands of people dead throughout northern Mexico. When the United States Army entered northern Mexico in 1846 they found demoralized Mexican settlers. There was little resistance to US forces from the civilian population.

Mexico's military and diplomatic capabilities declined after it attained independence and left the northern half of the country vulnerable to the Comanche, Apache, and Navajo. The indigenous people, especially the Comanche, took advantage of the weakness of the Mexican state to undertake large-scale raids hundreds of miles into the country to acquire livestock for their own use and to supply an expanding market in Texas and the US.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 05:26 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I see what you are saying Brandon. You are saying that the principles that apply to one side should also apply to the other. I agree with that principle. I don't want to quibble with words... but "principled" (which is what you are talking about here) is not the same as "moral" or "ethical". You are suggesting that I am not being "principled".

My morality is based on core values, my sense of what is right and wrong. It has nothing to do with legal, or political principles. It has to do with my sense that deporting people, breaking families, ruining lives is morally wrong, and that protecting people is the morally right thing to do.

I think you are oversimplifying the legal principles. Each case is different and judges write pages and pages explaining why they rule one way in one case and a different way on another.

But, I will be honest. My moral sense of right and wrong is far more important to than legal principles, and as such, I will push whatever legal principles in court that I can and use whatever political power I have in service of my sense of morality. That's how democracy works. I am glad we have courts that are supposed to make balanced impartial rulings on legal principles. That has nothing to do with morality.

I accept that morality is viewed differently by different people. Let's be honest, it is a difference in core values... what it means to be American and what America should mean that is at the center of this argument.


Sometimes when a debating opponent responds in a civil way, I feel funny about continuing the argument, but since you have asked for a response, here it is. You should stop giving the impression that you are making a moral argument about local control, since although you seek local control, you have no intention of granting it. More generally, no one has the right to enter or stay in another country illegally and then demand legal residence. Countries have every right to control who comes in and to have their rules respected. As for this frequently hear argument about "tearing families apart," that is the fault of the people who made the decision to enter or stay illegally, not of the country for enforcing its laws and rules. Those laws and rules were well understood from the beginning and the illegal aliens or their parents decided to violate them. As to the suffering imposed on the "dreamers," by immigration enforcement, that is the fault of whoever brought them in illegally or overstayed a legal visa. It is certainly not the fault of the country for enforcing its laws. If a father, for example, cheats on his taxes, when he is discovered and put in prison, his family is hardly justified in claiming that the government is being mean for putting him in prison and, thus, depriving them of his income. That is his fault entirely. It has always been true that when parents break the law, the whole family may suffer.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 05:29 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Best not to invite a bunch of foreign citizens into "your" land because you think you have a good use for them. They aint gunna owe you no loyalty, and will reject your dominion as soon as they get well-established enough to kick your ass.


Like it says here:

Quote:
In 1800, the colonial province of Texas was sparsely populated, with only about 7,000 non-Indian settlers. In 1829, as a result of the large influx of American immigrants, the non-Hispanic outnumbered native Spanish speakers in the Texas territory. The settlers and many Mexican businessmen in the region rejected the demands, which led to Mexico closing Texas to additional immigration, which continued from the United States into Texas illegally.

Finally, Stephen F. Austin called Texians to arms; they declared independence from Mexico in 1836, and after Santa Anna defeated the Texians at the Alamo, he was defeated by the Texian Army commanded by General Sam Houston and captured at the Battle of San Jacinto and signed a treaty recognizing Texas' independence.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 05:31 pm
@Brandon9000,
Well stated, Brandon.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 05:52 pm
@maxdancona,
This is the last time I will respond to this silly line of argument.

At the risk of hurting layman's feeling the second I spy the patois being laid on thickly, I move to the next post. You apparently read all of his posts whether you find them objectionable or not. I don't why you would.

I don't recognize any of the three points you've outlined because I never read any posts that expressed them. I doubt layman will agree that you've fairly represented his opinions, but if he does, maybe I'll respond further.

He and I are not on any "side" although we both have no use for Noam Chomsky and largely disagree with you. That is a matter of coincidence and not design. Again, we are not tag-teaming you.

If you insist on pursuing this, there's nothing more to discuss.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 06:45 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

At the risk of hurting layman's feeling the second I spy the patois being laid on thickly, I move to the next post.


OK, Finn, that's ******* IT, eh!? Ya done went and hurt my feelins, like, BIGTIME, ya know?

I done been VICTIMIZED, I tellzya!

I used to think you might be a OK perv, but not no more.

Anybody got a lap-dog to pet and some hot chocolate to console me?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 08:06 pm
@Brandon9000,
I prefer a discussion to a debate... and either way, civility is appreciated.

The "tearing families apart" is a real cost of current immigration policy, and many Americans see this as a problem. Of course this is also a political argument, but in the end the immigration fight is political. We need to win public support and emotional appeals highlighting the cost of this policy is a reasonable thing to do. Of course, this isn't a legal argument... it is a political one.

However.... the issue is whether the punishment fits the crime. Everyone (including us cheese eaters) that people who rob banks should be jailed. I think that very few Americans would accept it if people were jailed for driving without an inspection sticker. The question is whether you think crossing the border, or overstaying a visa, is more like armed robbery... or more like speeding.

When you are dealing with policy, you have to not only decide the rules... but also the penalties for breaking the rules. If enough Americans think that penalties are too harsh given the infraction, you will get political pressure to change it.

This has happened many times in our history where Americans broke laws leading to public outcry over the punishment; miscegenation laws, prohibition, anti-gay laws, music piracy (do you remember the outcry when grandmothers were being charged with piracy?).

Personally, deporting breadwinners to the detriment of American families is a penalty with costs that are far worse than the infraction. This is a moral principle, but it is also a political message. We want these cases front and center in the public political debate.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 08:25 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

Just kinda for the hell of it, here's a brief summary of U.S-Mexican relations during the 25 years following Mexico's gaining independence from Spain in 1821, courtesy of wiki:


Another thing I should have noted here. Mexico got exactly what it wanted and needed most out of this war: Protection of its borders and its citizens (which is all Americans are asking for). Part of the deal was that the U.S. would protect the (new) border and check all the raids by Comanches, Apaches, and other tribes into northern Mexico. They couldn't do that themselves and thousands were being killed deep into Mexico. Some Mexicans were actually expecting the Comanches to show up in Mexico City.

It took awhile, but the U.S. had conquered both tribes by 1875 and put them on reservations. Finally Mexico could know that it had a completely secure (from intrusion) border. They knew the U.S., being honorable, would not invade them without reason.

Another point here: The Mexicans still feel aggrieved because they like to think they "lost" land which they never had in the first place. It just goes to show you how insidious, powerful, and widespread the "victim mentality" can become when some people's weaknesses are fully exposed. There's a shitload of that going around today, and it aint just Mexicans, of course.

Instead of blaming the Comanches, who actually "owned" and occupied the land at the time, and who regularly brutalized them, they blame the country that actually saved them from widescale invasion. Why? Well, because the Comanches aint got nuthin, especially power, they want no more, I figure.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 08:32 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdoncona wrote:
...the issue is whether the punishment fits the crime

There is no "punishment" involved here, Max. These people are merely deported.

If I caught a 7 year old kid stealing a candy bar, I wouldn't "punish" him, but I would make him fork over the candy bar after getting a lecture. If for no other reason than to teach him and his homeys that "crime doesn't pay."

Of course the kid might feel he was abused and severely "punished" for not being able to steal it. So what?

All these "dreamers" presumably have plenty of homeys in Mexico, including, but not limited to, the Mexican parents they came with and who they are leaving with.

No breaking up of the family, see!
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2018 08:53 pm
@layman,
Quote:
I would make him fork over the candy bar after getting a lecture. If for no other reason than to teach him and his homeys that "crime doesn't pay."

Try to imagine how many bank robberies and robbery attempts there would be if the only "punishment," if and when the robbers were ever caught, was that they weren't allowed to keep the money.

Now try to imagine just how greatly that even that huge number would increase if they WERE allowed to keep the money, and just urged not to do it again.
0 Replies
 
 

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