4
   

What, exactly, is the rationale for establishing "sanctuary cities?"

 
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Jan, 2018 07:34 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Why? Because illegal immigration is a strategy for them.
It's an ill-conceived strategy that will totally backfire on them when California and other southwestern states secede and annex themselves to Mexico. They'll REALLY be S.O.L. then.

On the other hand, there a slight possibility that Trump can help the country avoid that fate. Virtually flawless border security, coupled with aggressive deportation of every last illegal, could save the day, over the long term.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Jan, 2018 07:39 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

maxdancona wrote:
...3. I have stated my opinion on the inability for Federal government to force local police to enforce laws that American Citizens living in these areas don't want enforced. We went back and forth on this. We still disagree on this...

Just out of curiosity, what about the right of states to force local police to cooperate with state laws or policies? What if some town in California says that it will accept state laws or policies only when it wants to and intends to turn all illegal immigrants in custody over to ICE. You'd be okay with that?


Fair question Brandon... actually I am currently working on passing the Safe Communities Act in Massachusetts (I have developed a relationship with my State Reps and am lobbying them). The Safe Communities Act would do exactly that... prevent local law enforcement from cooperating with the ICE. We have one Sheriff here who I consider particularly problematic.

The legal answer is that the US Constitution specifically limits Federal government power over local government (particularly the 10th amendment). Even without this Constitutional protection, Congress would have to pass a law specifically requiring local governments to cooperate. You can bet that I would be among the American voices calling for the defeat/filibuster of this law.

The State Constitution does not provide this protection for local governments. Nor should it in my opinion.


I'm not sure if you answered yes or no. You seemed to be making a moral argument before that states should not be forced to cooperate with laws or policies that they disagree with. So, you would or would not support cities in telling the state government to stick it and cooperating with ICE because they want to?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Jan, 2018 08:14 pm
@Brandon9000,
This is a very one-sided discussion. And, since no one here seems to want to do anything other than throw around propaganda, I suppose I will be Ok with that. Layman how now cited about 0.0001% of federal cases, picking only the ones that he thinks support his side. It seems to be making him happy. I could go to liberal leaning cites and match Layman post for post on legal cases. But what's the point? Anyone here can just google it.

Legal analysis is for lawyers, and for courts. It seems to me ability of local police departments to refuse to participate in 287(g) programs has been upheld.

Yes... as an American citizen, I would love to tell ICE to stick it! Any legal way of doing this is fine with me. There are millions of us who feel this way, and yes we are working on winning back the House and making gains in the Senate to change the laws. But until then, we do what we can with the laws we have.

Local police departments are there to support local communities. My local police department knows that I don't want them cooperating with the ICE except where necessary (or in obvious cases of terror or violent crime). If they do, I will use the political power I have to get whoever is responsible fired. In my community, this is exactly what will happen, and the police brass know it.

Does that answer your question?


layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 01:25 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
It seems to me ability of local police departments to refuse to participate in 287(g) programs has been upheld.


Of course, but that's not saying anything. That program, which permits ICE to delegate some immigration enforcement authority to local authorities, was designed to be strictly voluntary from the get-go. There was never anything mandatory about it.

If that's the "many cases" your talking about, then ya aint got nuthin.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 02:53 am
Coming back to the California "santuary" law again for a minute, here's the first section, purporting to allow "cooperation" in certain (very) limited circumstances:

Quote:
A law enforcement official shall have discretion to cooperate with immigration authorities only if doing so would not violate any federal, state, or local law, or local policy, and where permitted by the California Values Act (Chapter 17.25 (commencing with Section 7284)).


I have already pointed out the illusory nature of this "granting" of the right to exercise discretion, since it can only be exercised if there is no "policy" against it. That's simply saying "you can use discretion unless someone tells you that you can't." It gives nothing.

But what's also interesting to me is this limitation imposed by the "California Values Act." What's that? Well, here it is:

Quote:
This chapter shall be known, and may be cited, as the California Values Act. The Legislature finds and declares the following:

(a) Immigrants are valuable and essential members of the California community. Almost one in three Californians is foreign born and one in two children in California has at least one immigrant parent.

(b) A relationship of trust between California’s immigrant community and state and local agencies is central to the public safety of the people of California.

(c) This trust is threatened when state and local agencies are entangled with federal immigration enforcement, with the result that immigrant community members fear approaching police when they are victims of, and witnesses to, crimes, seeking basic health services, or attending school, to the detriment of public safety and the well-being of all Californians.

(d) Entangling state and local agencies with federal immigration enforcement programs diverts already limited resources and blurs the lines of accountability between local, state, and federal governments.

(e) State and local participation in federal immigration enforcement programs also raises constitutional concerns, including the prospect that California residents could be detained in violation of the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution, targeted on the basis of race or ethnicity in violation of the Equal Protection Clause, or denied access to education based on immigration status. See Sanchez Ochoa v. Campbell, et al. (E.D. Wash. 2017) 2017 WL 3476777; Trujillo Santoya v. United States, et al. (W.D. Tex. 2017) 2017 WL 2896021; Moreno v. Napolitano (N.D. Ill. 2016) 213 F. Supp. 3d 999; Morales v. Chadbourne (1st Cir. 2015) 793 F.3d 208; Miranda-Olivares v. Clackamas County (D. Or. 2014) 2014 WL 1414305; Galarza v. Szalczyk (3d Cir. 2014) 745 F.3d 634.

(f) This chapter seeks to ensure effective policing, to protect the safety, well-being, and constitutional rights of the people of California, and to direct the state’s limited resources to matters of greatest concern to state and local governments.

(g) It is the intent of the Legislature that this chapter shall not be construed as providing, expanding, or ratifying any legal authority for any state or local law enforcement agency to participate in immigration enforcement.


So, you only have "discretion" if there's no "policy" against it, but here's the "policy" which is against it, just in case ya don't hear it elsewhere. "A relationship of trust between California’s immigrant community and state and local agencies is central to the public safety of the people of California. This trust is threatened when state and local agencies are entangled with federal immigration enforcement."

The point? Superficially, this statute purports to grant some very limited amount of "discretion" to law enforcement to "cooperate" with immigration authorities, but, in reality it effectively revokes any and all supposed discretion immediately. Bottom line: You cannot cooperate with immigration authorities, ever. You have no "discretion" to cooperate, even if you want to.

The statute tries to create the illusion of allowing discretion in a very transparent effort to avoid violation of such federal statues as 1373, but in reality, it effectively prohibits law enforcement from complying with that section.

Good luck with that, Mexicans and cheese-eaters.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 03:24 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
My local police department knows that I don't want them cooperating with the ICE except where necessary (or in obvious cases of terror or violent crime). If they do, I will use the political power I have to get whoever is responsible fired.


So, you, Max, you, personally, have the "political power" to get the whole police department fired, if they don't please YOU, eh? Well, aint that sumthin?

Earlier I asked who should write the immigration laws...you? Apparently the answer is pretty much "yeah, me, at least in my community."

All you seem to really want to discuss is your vision of the perfect immigration policy, presumably the one which would allow the social engineering you talked about to "build" your ideal community.

Let's say that, by some miracle, you were appointed to unilaterally re-write the whole immigration code to suit yourself and that it would then be passed into law. Would you expect anyone to comply with it?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 04:51 am
@maxdancona,
maxdoncona wrote:
I have stated my opinion on the inability for Federal government to force local police to enforce laws that American Citizens living in these areas don't want enforced.


Yes, you have, and you said, this is based upon the provisions of the 10th Amendment. And, of course, I countered with numerous example, such as that the Feds can force local authorities to enforce federal anti-lynching laws, whether they want to or not.

You have also suggested that, in the area of immigration law, federal laws such as section 1373, would somehow be "unconstitutional." Of course that claim was soundly and specifically rejected by the court in the New York case, so that aint gunna fly. That case said the provision was constitutional and squarely within the authority of Congress to enact and enforce.

You have also made an appeal to the "anti-commandeering" doctrine, which has also been rejected, as I have previously noted. Here's a excerpt from the case in question.

the Supreme Court wrote:
The Driver’s Privacy Protection Act of 1994 (DPPA or Act), 18 U.S.C. § 2721—2725 (1994 ed. and Supp. III), regulates the disclosure of personal information contained in the records of state motor vehicle departments (DMVs).

South Carolina contends that the DPPA violates the Tenth Amendment because it “thrusts upon the States all of the day-to-day responsibility for administering its complex provisions,” and thereby makes “state officials the unwilling implementors of federal policy.”

We agree with South Carolina’s assertion that the DPPA’s provisions will require time and effort on the part of state employees, but reject the State’s argument that the DPPA violates the principles laid down in either New York or Printz.

The DPPA does not require the States in their sovereign capacity to regulate their own citizens. The DPPA regulates the States as the owners of databases. We accordingly conclude that the DPPA is consistent with constitutional principles [and does not commandeer state resources].


https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/98-1464.ZO.html

Contrary to your flimsy-ass assertion, the posts I am making here do not come from "conservative websites." I am quoting the Supreme Court. You have yet to produce a single case, to substantiate your bogus claims. The actual cases I cite CONTRADICT your unfounded claims, that's all. You got a Court that supersedes the U.S. Supreme Court? The Supreme Court of Maxdoncona, maybe?

1373, among other things, makes it illegal for a state to prohibit any entity from "maintaining" information pertaining to the immigration status of

8 USC 1373 wrote:
...no person or agency may prohibit, or in any way restrict, a Federal, State, or local government entity from doing any of the following with respect to information regarding the immigration status, lawful or unlawful, of any individual:

(2) Maintaining such information.


Among other serious defects, the california statute prohibits it's officers from even inquiring about the immigration status of any individual, i.e., it prohibits them from "maintaining such information." It won't help to argue that we can't "maintain" it because we refuse to allow anyone to acquire it. The effect is to prohibit the maintenance of this crucial information, contrary to the legitimate requirements of section 1373.

Nice try, Max.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 05:44 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Yes... as an American citizen, I would love to tell ICE to stick it! Any legal way of doing this is fine with me.


You finally qualify your claims, and purport to demonstrate your respect for law, by throwing in the word "legal," here, eh, Max?

But it's just lip service. You justify your "obstruct and defy federal law" position by merely telling yourself (or, actually, being "told" then repeating) that everything you advocate is "legal."

That's not "respecting" the law. It's merely an exercise in attempting to dictate the law, to suit your idiosyncratic desires.

This country has already dealt with your kind in the "Nullification Crisis:"

Quote:
You may not have heard of the “Nullification Crisis” that President Andrew Jackson faced in 1832. But there are many unfortunate similarities between it and what is happening today on immigration.

Led by John Calhoun, South Carolina and other states asserted that they had the final authority to declare federal laws unconstitutional and thus null and void within their states.

In 1832, the nullifiers took control of the South Carolina government and passed the infamous “Ordinance of Nullification.”

Andrew Jackson reacted strongly to this threat from South Carolina, including issuing a Nullification Proclamation on Dec. 10, 1832. Nullification was “incompatible with the existence of the Union, contradicted expressly by the letter of the Constitution, unauthorized by its spirit, inconsistent with every principle on which it was founded, and destructive of the great object for which it was formed,” He wrote.

Congress passed the Force Bill, which gave the president the power to use state militias and federal forces against the nullifiers. The crisis was resolved when South Carolina repealed it's Ordinance of Nullifcation.
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 11:01 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
This is a very one-sided discussion. And, since no one here seems to want to do anything other than throw around propaganda, I suppose I will be Ok with that. Layman how now cited about 0.0001% of federal cases, picking only the ones that he thinks support his side. It seems to be making him happy. I could go to liberal leaning cites and match Layman post for post on legal cases. But what's the point? Anyone here can just google it.

Legal analysis is for lawyers, and for courts. It seems to me ability of local police departments to refuse to participate in 287(g) programs has been upheld.

Yes... as an American citizen, I would love to tell ICE to stick it! Any legal way of doing this is fine with me. There are millions of us who feel this way, and yes we are working on winning back the House and making gains in the Senate to change the laws. But until then, we do what we can with the laws we have.

Local police departments are there to support local communities. My local police department knows that I don't want them cooperating with the ICE except where necessary (or in obvious cases of terror or violent crime). If they do, I will use the political power I have to get whoever is responsible fired. In my community, this is exactly what will happen, and the police brass know it.

Does that answer your question?

I think so, but I'll try to summarize your answer a it relates to my question, and you can correct me, if I am saying something untrue. You want the state to have the right to disregard federal laws and policies that you don't like, but will attempt to punish any city within the state that disregards state policies that you do like.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 11:13 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
You want the state to have the right to disregard federal laws and policies that you don't like, but will attempt to punish any city within the state that disregards state policies that you do like.


Obviously! Everyone wants the state to have the right to disregard federal laws and policies they don't like, but will attempt to punish anyone who disregards policies they do like. I don't really get your point.

We have a legal system, and a complex set of sometimes contradicting laws. When people disagree, they go to court.

I am making no claim that my side is always right by the "correct" interpretation of the law. We win some in court, and we lose some in court. But, as an American citizen I want my side to push in court at least as hard as the other side. I am also willing to engage in civil disobedience on this issue... but that is another issue. The law give us rights, and we will take them.

And when it comes to the local police, they work for me. My community can fire them if they don't do their jobs the way we think they should. That's how it works.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 11:38 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I am making no claim that my side is always right by the "correct" interpretation of the law. We win some in court, and we lose some in court.


Ambrose Bierce wrote:
“LITIGATION: A machine which you go into as a pig and come out of as a sausage.”
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 11:55 am
@layman,
Quote:
This country has already dealt with your kind in the "Nullification Crisis:"


And that wasn't the onliest time either. In 1860 there was a great debate about whether a State had the inherent right to secede from the Union. You can still debate that today, if you care to.

When it comes down to it, it aint even the best argument that prevails. It's who can whup the other's ass, that's all.

The way I figure it, there's a huge mass of cheese-eaters out there who are just beggin for a beatdown.

There will be tanks rollin in to L.A., Chicago, New York, and a shitload of other defiant cities right soon, if that's what it takes.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 12:07 pm
@layman,
Finn, is Layman being a provocateur again? Or is he really suggesting that the US roll tanks into Los Angeles and New York.

Either way... Layman is certainly entertaining, and at least this time he isn't insulting ethnic minorities.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 12:10 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Layman is certainly entertaining, and at least this time he isn't insulting ethnic minorities.

Be patient.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 12:18 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Let's say that, by some miracle, you were appointed to unilaterally re-write the whole immigration code to suit yourself and that it would then be passed into law. Would you expect anyone to comply with it?


Ya see that there question, eh, Max?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 12:24 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
Layman is certainly entertaining, and at least this time he isn't insulting ethnic minorities.

Be patient.


That's the way it is with cheese-eaters, eh, Max? If someone don't agree with ya, then your insulted. If you happen to be in some kinda minority group, then the perv who disagreed is "insulting minorities." Ya aint gunna find no "ethnic slur" in this here thread, even though I done been accused of it, already.

Well, on second thought, I guess I'll hafta fess up. Callin someone a "Mexican," is an ethnic slur, sho nuff.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 12:30 pm
@layman,
I had to edit that post because the first time I typed "ethnic slut." Now, that's sumthin EVERYONE loves, eh?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 12:40 pm
@maxdancona,
That's your problem...you don't know how you can be more clear.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 12:42 pm
@maxdancona,
Get over yourself
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 12:44 pm
@maxdancona,
There you go again...

Trying to conflate me with layman

 

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